Re-releasing a DAT listener favorite!
Chris Sands and Brent Saunier are on the podcast to talk about the hottest topics in the dental accounting world. Founding partners of Pro-Fi 20/20, these dental CPAs chat with Kiera about how to reduce overhead and expand the number of patients coming in, expense metrics from the hundreds of offices Pro-Fi works with, a tax rule you NEED to live by, what to stay away from financially with your business, and a ton more.
Pro-Fi 20/20 is an accounting business that the Dental A-Team recommend. This episode is a goldmine of information from two fellows who know what they’re talking about — especially with regard to the dental industry.
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Transcript:
Kiera Dent (00:00)
Hello, Dental A Team listeners. This is Kiera. And today we are bringing you something so special. I am so excited because this is one of our most popular episodes from the archives. Whether you're hearing this for the first time or catching it again, I am so excited because it's jam packed with a ton of takeaways that you can start using right now in your practice. We have released thousands, literally thousands of episodes. And I wanted to start bringing a few of these amazing episodes back for you. So I hope you enjoy. And as always, thanks for listening and I'll catch you next time.
on the Dental A Team podcast.
speaker-0 (00:31)
today I wanted to bring on two special guests. These are actually CPA in the CPA world. Believe it or not, Dental A Team actually consults this company. So we definitely love them. They went a step above most CPA companies and they really wanted to get to know the ins and outs of the dental world. So I'm super jazzed to bring them on and to just have them dive into some of the hot topics in the accounting world. ? two people that I trust and recommend heavily. ? I
They are one of my top three CPA firms that I refer and recommend constantly. So I'm excited to welcome Chris and Brent from Pro-Fi. How are you gentlemen today?
speaker-1 (01:06)
Awesome, Kiera. Thanks so much for having us. We're excited to be with you.
speaker-0 (01:10)
Yeah, absolutely. Brent, how are you doing today?
speaker-2 (01:12)
I am doing great. I appreciate the invite. I'm looking forward to this 30 minutes with you.
speaker-0 (01:17)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, who knows? We'll see how long this ends up going, guys. Brent, can't put a time on us. It could be dangerous zone.
speaker-1 (01:24)
You're lucky he said he's doing great because we're in the heat of extended tax season, so he's kind of in the trenches. Lucky he's in a good mood.
speaker-0 (01:32)
I know Tiffany has been trying to get back out to you guys to see you and Beth you heard this awesome rock star in the company She keeps saying like tiff. It's like extended tax time or it's this or it's that deadline I'm like, my gosh, you guys just have I think you're secretly adrenaline junkies of CPAs even though you don't come across that way But I think you love it cuz tax season I feel is just like adrenaline rush like trying to get to the deadline. I just can't imagine that stress like
Every quarter every year you just hit it. So props to you guys. That's not my world but super jazz to have you guys on here. ? so Chris let's dive in I know there's some things so we're gonna kind of hit on overhead we're gonna talk about some taxing some Some things to be aware of i'm just so excited because this is a world I don't know and I do purposely bring really really talented and educated cpas and financial advisors onto the podcast because I'm we have a three-fold approach in our company. It's focusing on
Money and finances making sure your business is profitable you as a person and as an individual and then systems and teams top to bottom So I am big I think as a business owner. I wasn't profitable when I first started. I didn't know how to look at my numbers I didn't even know what the heck over influence. I was like googling how to figure it out So i'm just jazzing you guys are here. So Chris kind of take us away I know you had some great topics for today and i'm excited to just
Rift a little bit with you, dive into these things, things that are really tangible for our practices now, especially where you guys work with hundreds of offices across the nation. Lots of good data to be pulling out for our practices listening.
speaker-1 (03:04)
Sure, well, ? Kiera, I think that there's a lot of discussion around, does the DSO world seem to do a better job with overhead than the private practice world? I think a lot of private practice doctors are wondering that, they're frustrated or how do I get my overhead down? And a lot of times, I think when you focus on expenses, you tend to attract expenses. And in our world of accounting, I will often tell doctors that, ?
Accounting cannot make you money, it cannot generate revenue. The expenses part is the easy part for us that we can work on trying to reduce some things, but you either have a revenue problem or an expense problem. And in most cases it's actually, you creating enough revenue on your fixed expenses? And most of dentistry doesn't understand how simple that is to scale the dental business model when you look at it from a high level.
You scale a business and reduce overhead with doctor production. Okay. And so that means you need enough patients to see the practice that I worked in from my experience was 40 to 60 new patients a month per doctor, per full-time doctor. And it means you need to be reinvesting enough into marketing. And I'll talk about that, that expense or reinvestment of marketing in a minute to get those new patients. And you need to be.
monitoring the phones that get answered properly and there's conversion rate of those inbound calls to appointments scheduled. And then the real job is case acceptance. Okay, and so here I am in an accounting firm coming on your podcast and I bet you didn't think I was gonna like be talking about case acceptance.
speaker-0 (04:46)
was like, wonder we didn't talk about all your time. I'm just kidding.
speaker-1 (04:49)
So, know, dentistry is really the product that's being delivered. And if you're ethically diagnosing the need and creating the treatment plan, your job is to help the patient understand the urgency and necessity of fixing the problem and paying you to do that work. So your job isn't really the dentistry itself, it's case acceptance.
And your first task is to become great at case acceptance yourself as a practicing clinician. But then the real task as the owner is to be able to teach other doctors to become good at it. So I think, you know, the only the only variable overhead that the dental business model has is paying doctors a percentage of the dental collections that they create. And then you have labs and you have supplies.
associated with the dentistry that's delivered. those expenses are variable. They track with the amount of dentistry that gets done. Everything else is fixed overhead when you really think about it. Marketing is fixed and it only changes based on your choosing. Your team expenses are fixed and they only change when you hire or fire. Your rent and facility costs are fixed. Your equipment costs are fixed and only changed by your choosing. And the various required admin costs, they're all pretty much fixed. They only change by your choosing.
So if you can create more doctor generated collections with the same team and fixed expenses, your profit margin goes up, your percentage overhead, your percentage overhead to collections ratio goes down. Okay. And so I guess we see most private practice or single, should certainly say single location, solo doctor practices. We see them failing at this because they choose not to reinvest enough.
back into the business, into that marketing for new patients. They're not monitoring the phones. They're not training their team. They're not training their doctors on case acceptance. And they're too closely focused on just the clinical delivery of the dentistry. Don't get me wrong, that's required, but that's not what makes you successful or financially successful. So I can give you ? some generic ranges for expenses, but the real thing is that
You know, the real way to scale a business is to generate more revenue on the same overhead. That's kind of the definition.
speaker-0 (07:20)
And isn't that basically then probably the DSO model because they have lower fixed costs per se. They've figured out how to have centralized billing, centralized call center, centralized. So many things centralized that they don't need all these different things. So solo practices, if I'm understanding correctly, they've got all the costs associated, but they only have X number of revenue where when you start to add in those multiples of practices,
That's where your fixed costs, it's going, yes, of course your fixed costs will increase a bit, but I mean, I do know our fixed costs did not go up that much more when I added our second practice to it because I already have my base of fixed costs there and then we're just able to add more revenue. Is that kind of what you're saying? Am I understanding?
speaker-1 (08:01)
Yeah,
I mean, you know, that, part about centralizing is, know, when you, when you do have multiple locations, I would say three or more, then you can consolidate the amount of team that's working the front desk into one location. Instead of needing three to five team members at the front desk in every office, you may only need three to five team members for all three offices. You're having one of the best things by the way, as kind of an aside, one of the best things that private practices can do as they grow is to get those phones off the front desk. You know, let.
speaker-0 (08:20)
Right, right.
I agree.
speaker-1 (08:30)
You know, like there needs to be, that needs to be in a totally separate admin space. But, ? you know, I get asked that question a lot. Like my overhead is 65 % and how can I afford to hire another associate doctor and pay them 30 or 35 %? Well, you know, that doctor is going to create new collections. That's the point. It's not to give them your patients. It's to grow the number of patients coming in that, that you as one doctor maybe are stressed.
and you hire the next doctor and you've got to continue to invest in the marketing to keep your job as the owner is keep the chairs full, right? As long as the chairs are full, if that associate doctor is ethically diagnosing like you are, if you guys have a ? clinical standard of care in your practice, if you guys talk about how you treatment plan and your treatment planning the same way, that's all required. But here's the real test. You know, how do they connect with people? How do they, how do they,
establish a relationship, establish trust and get them to move forward with that treatment. So I think dentists hate to use this word in dentistry, but the job is kind of sales. You know, if you believe in your product of dentistry to solve this need and like, again, if you diagnose decay and they don't get rid of it, you failed. I could go on a tangent on that, but the new doctor will bring new collections and you might have to hire at most, you know, an additional
speaker-0 (09:46)
Yeah.
speaker-1 (09:55)
Assistant or two and that would be a new fixed overhead. You would increase your fixed over it slightly But other than that the doctor covers all their costs with their their percentage pay the labs that are associated with it that the supplies are associated with it and You should net somewhere in the ballpark of 40 to 50 percent on the new collections they create and that that just adds to your profit Because all the other fixed overhead stays the same
speaker-0 (10:19)
So I think there's a few things on there of like, I just, think it's a matter of realizing a lot of people bring on associates though, because they're tired, they want more free time. They don't want to be working as much. And I think it's important to clarify that if that's your model, that's totally fine. Everybody knows on the deadline team, I am not somebody who judges. I think everybody has their own personal path.
And so whatever jives with you and resonates with you. So if you're wanting to bring on an associate to have more free time, to not have to produce as much, fantastic, but realize that that overhead might not trickle down because now you're kind of replacing your cost with an associate that you're paying. And some doctors I know don't take as much pay as they would pay an associate per se, which to me, I think is a somewhat failed model. I'm really big on prepping and preparing for that associate, paying yourself as if you were an associate. So you know, these costs before you bring on an associate.
? but I really think it's important to note that because like you're saying that overhead will go down as long as the doctors are producing. And as long you're able to bring on that other doctor and have them produce, cause they should cover themselves. I definitely agree with that. ? also I'm sure people are saying, yeah, but Chris, like in order to bring on another associate, I'm going to have to build out ops. That's a huge cost and expense. So I am curious, what have you guys found in Brent? You might have some answers to this Chris, you might. ? but if an office is having to say, build out two more ops.
in their practice to be able to bring on an associate, how long does it usually take when you're doing build outs for that cost to be recouped and start being more profitable? Because oftentimes I do think that that gets into the problem with a lot of doctors is they're constantly building more to bring on these other doctors. So they're always adding more and more expenses. Like when do they ever break even? So what have you guys seen with build outs and different things like that of that break even point? How long should they plan for it to not be as profitable?
speaker-1 (12:09)
Okay, I'm gonna give you a lot of answers on this. So number one, we use a metric called revenue per chair. So, you know, every, you
speaker-0 (12:17)
What
do recommend? What do you guys recommend per chair?
speaker-1 (12:19)
So yeah, everyone has a space and you have only a fixed number of spaces or operatories you can have in it. And there's only a fixed amount of time and days and hours and a number of doctors that you have. And revenue per chair capacity, we see a range between 25,000 to 40,000 per chair per month. And it does not matter when you do this. This is just, take collections and divide it by the number of chairs you have. ?
This does not matter how many chairs are for hygiene or how many chairs are for dentistry. That's your choice. Actually, you know, there are models where every chair can do everything and the patient never, but the 25 to 40,000 at 35,000 of revenue per chair, you're running fairly efficiently and you're going to need to be planning to expand. You're going to start to run out of space. So that's our metric first and foremost. And so if somebody tells us, well,
speaker-0 (12:53)
Sure.
speaker-1 (13:09)
I've got four chairs right now, but I have space for seven. I haven't built out the other three. I tell them, you don't need to build out the other three until you're approaching that $35,000 a month of revenue per chair. Question you asked, how much does it cost and when do you recoup that? So in my experience, typically it's around $25,000 per ? operatory to equip it, assuming it's already plumbed. ?
after you just take that number and say, so let's say you were equipping a few operatories, so $50,000, you ? essentially, your cost of the doctor plus the lab and supplies should max out at 50%. Okay, now they have to be producing. So until you get them, they've produced over $100,000. All right, let me do it per chair.
They need to do over $50,000 per chair for you to get your costs back. After that, you're in the money.
speaker-0 (14:09)
which I think is also smart because I don't know. think dentists kind of err on two different sides. Sometimes they're too slow to actually build out. They are so cost conscious and so concerned about that build up, about the cost of the chair, about all the other things that they're missing, that that one chair is going to generate several thousands of dollars of revenue. I've had a few doctors where I'll say, sure, no problem. We'll do a deal. I will happily pay for that one chair and you pay me all.
the revenue that comes through from that chair for the next three months. That's all I ask is three months. and I know I'm going to come out way ahead of you because it will generate and it will produce, especially in high producing practices. So I think so often people are just so scared to do those build-outs because they see the cost or they do the flip side where they believe like, if we build it, they will come and they're overly aggressive and they don't have necessarily the patient base or the doctors in play to be able to accommodate that. So
I love, I need to agree. It's either cut costs or increase your revenue. Like that's really overhead.
speaker-1 (15:12)
One more way to think about it is, you know, if they have patients that are having to wait so many weeks or months to schedule out to come in. if you can calculate your collections divided by the number of patients seen for any given time, for year to date or for a full year, you can get your average revenue per patient. Okay. And if you know your average revenue per patient, you know how many either new patients or how many more patients you need to fill that chair to cover the cost.
Okay. So if your average revenue per patient was, you know, $1,500 per patient, um, and the cost of that chair is 25,000, just take 25,000 divided by 1500. And that'll tell you how many patients have to be seen in that chair before you pay for that chair. Sure. You're to be in the money, you know, it's in terms of the construction. That's another basically upfront, one time fixed costs that you're going to cover. And then all the future revenue that it's going to generate. So.
Maybe if you like, think before we end this topic on overhead, I'll give you kind some of our expense metric. ?
speaker-0 (16:18)
Sure, yeah, absolutely.
Well, hang on, before you go into expense metrics, I want to bring up one piece that I think often gets missed, because you're saying like we're in the money. But I also want to bring up something that I really love to point out, and that is return on emotion. Some people don't want to bring on an associate. Yes, like as a business model, you can be more financially successful with an associate. Yes, you can, having more chairs, more build out, more practices. ? But I also want to point out there is a return on emotion. There are sometimes
Bigger headaches, they're also sometimes less headaches with bigger organizations. I personally love to consult larger practices. The pettiness, the cattiness, the smaller drama is way less in larger practices or multiple locations. So like that drastically drops down. They figured it out. They're dialed into systems. But at the same time, I think it's important for people to assess that return on emotion. You might have a dreamy life. You might be doing exactly what you want and sure you could produce more.
But if you're off work at say two or three o'clock every day and you work two or three days a week and you're shelling and seven fifty to a million in profit, not a bad lifestyle. So I think it's also important to assess like what you ultimately want and what your return on emotion is before just saying like, I'm going to build because this is the way to do it. I think if you're looking at your practices as a business model, which I personally think a lot of us should look at it that way, ? just to see what you what you ultimately want, what's your end game. And that's also where I love financial advisors of
Like what is your total term? Like where do you want to get? Does it make sense to grow? Does it make sense to stay where I'm at? ? I think oftentimes we, we forget that return on emotion and how that is. We always think of like return on investment, but what does that return on emotion too? So just want to put a plug of like, I think everyone's on their own path, their own journey. Definitely agree. There are lots of ways that you can be insanely profitable and having multiple practices is a great, great, great business play. And you're able to help more practices. I'm all in favor.
You're gonna have multiple locations. Make sure you're doing awesome dentistry because sure, it can be very lucrative. Just be ethical because I think that plays out long-term. So Chris, with that, what are some of the metrics you guys look at? Because I agree, I love to hear people's metrics. I think we're pretty closely aligned with you guys on metrics, which is another reason I really love working with you guys and your clients.
speaker-1 (18:32)
So I think if you ? were to survey the Academy of dental CPAs and all of their, what you see them put out statistically, they're gonna tell you the metric of one to 2 % for marketing. When you go and you immerse yourself in the DSO world and their conferences and get to know what they're doing, you're gonna see more of an average of six to 8 % reinvestment into marketing. DSOs have a harder time with retention. They have more patients going out the back door. Private practices.
degraded retention, but they don't often invite enough people to the party. So we don't go by the one to 2 % number. think that's an area where people try to, they're trying to keep costs down. You know, your business is the greatest asset that you own that provides the greatest return and you have the most control over. So you should be reinvesting in it more than you reinvest in the stock market or anything else. So our metric for marketing is three to 8%. Private practices, like to see at least three to five.
I mean, excuse me, in GP practices, in specialty practices, especially like orthodontics, needs to be on the higher end. Team expenses between 20 to 30%. We certainly try to keep that under 30%. Team expense does not include doctors. Okay. So that's all of your, all of your, uh, your, your entire team, including a hygienist as well, but not doctors, uh, dental supplies somewhere five to nine, five to 10 % labs.
speaker-0 (19:36)
Yes, absolutely.
speaker-1 (19:58)
four to 7%. So again, those dental supplies and labs really should not be greater than roughly 15 % total. Rent and facilities, five to 9%. What does that mean? So if you have a high percentage in your rent and facility costs, if your rent facility is let's say nine, 10, 11%, that means you're probably not maximizing the space and getting the collections that is possible there. Again, using that revenue per chair metric.
When you're on the lower end, if you have 4 to 5 % rent of facility, means you're running very efficiently. You're probably going to be running out of space and need to expand or potentially relocate or get another location. And then there's general administrative costs somewhere in the range of 4 to 10%, depending on the practice type and what additional folks they have.
speaker-0 (20:48)
Cool.
speaker-1 (20:50)
That's it on everything.
speaker-0 (20:51)
No, I love it so much because I think so often people don't look at their P &Ls and they don't even know what they should be targeting for. It's just like, well, do I have money left over or do I not? And then I don't know. like all of that combined should equal about 50 % there. Is that correct? Those are 50 % and then doctor pays 30 % to give a 20 % profit margin. And then you subtract debt services from that. that kind of your guys' model? That's what I've heard. It's what I typically recommend.
speaker-1 (21:18)
Roughly. mean, yeah. You know, I, the most ideal is that I think when the average doctor starts to work with us, their profit margin is in the twenties, the 20 % range. our goal is to get them into the forties. Okay. And everyone does chase this like 50 % number, but I will tell you that eventually if you have to scale again, if you have to reinvest, that's the part like you're, drive yourself nuts. Would you rather have, you know, 50 % of 1 million or do you rather have 40 % of 3 million? Right.
You know, and that's that. So it's not always just about that overhead percentage. Uh, it is about if you choose to scale and you're, you're buying, you're reinvesting some of your, your overhead percentage, you're reinvesting some of your money to buy back your time. Like you said earlier, okay. Um, whether that's on multiple doctors or not, you know, being a slave to the chair is difficult and high risk to you as a business owner. It's one of the riskiest business models there is.
speaker-0 (22:12)
Right.
I think that that's such a good point.
But guys, you don't know, can, Pro-Fi is fantastic. You can reach out to them, have them help you with your PNLs. Also your current CPAs, you can get a chart of accounts and give them these percentages and say, this is where I want it to be. Help me get there, give me some information because a lot of CPAs are not dental specific and they might not know these industry standards. And I agree with you. I also think it's important to think of growth years and also profit years. Some years you are definitely massively.
reinvesting into the practice and you might not be sitting at as high of an overhead, but you're doing it with the intent. Like when I bring on new team members, when you bring on new doctors, your overhead is going to go down. It should go down because you are investing and you're growing, but you need those people. This year on Dental A Team is a growth year. I am heavily bringing on new team members. My overhead is not as great as it has been in the past years. But if I, like you said, chase that X number of overhead and never invest in that growth,
I can't get to the next level of where I wanna go. So I thought that was really, really helpful. Thank you for that, Chris. And I know now we wanna spin over to Brent. Brent's been hanging out silently over there of some tax things. And I do love that you guys ying and yang on practice metrics because that's what we're all about. And then the tax world that I'm like, here's the thing. Here's my take on taxes. I am so grateful to live in a country where I get to pay taxes to have my own business. Like I truly think that is a massive blessing of the country we live in.
With that said, I also think it's my responsibility as a business owner to be as savvy as I can on taxes and not overpay on taxes because I'm just dumb and I'm not actually looking at strategy using smart people beyond myself to do it. So Brent, I'm so jazzed. Talk to us kind of about some tax things that you've been thinking of that your clients are dealing with.
speaker-2 (24:00)
Yeah, absolutely. So I remember a few early evening calls with you and you're calling and saying help.
speaker-0 (24:06)
It was in December last year, like literally right before the end of the year. And I was like, Brent, I owe so much dang money in taxes. Any ideas? It's fine, guys. It's fine.
speaker-2 (24:19)
One of the foundations of Pro-Fi that we built it on is education. So we are very big believers in educating our clients to understand, first and foremost, how do you even generate taxes? So the number of conversations we have with dentists that just don't have a basic understanding is really astounding to me. So we first take an approach of, you have to understand how do you generate income tax? You generate income tax by the salary or W-2 you take.
and profit. The key thing here is it does not matter if you take a dollar of that profit out of the business, you still owe tax on the profit. So here, when you're looking at your P &L, let's say a doctor has a half a million dollars of profit and they choose not to take it home and leave it in the business, they will still pay tax on half a million dollars. I had a call today, the exact conversation is like, why didn't take any of the money home?
speaker-0 (25:18)
It doesn't matter. were profitable brother, sister, like rock on. Happy day for you.
speaker-2 (25:23)
You know, as Chris was alluding to, if you choose to reinvest in the practice, do marketing or other items like that that are deductible, that will obviously reduce your burden. The second thing, the second biggest mistake is don't underestimate your effective tax rate. So Chris and I have, we call it, I guess the golden rule or the 40 % tax rule. And that is geared towards over-preparing a business owner when it comes time to send in those quarterly estimates.
And I'll come back to that one in a minute, but the 40 % tax rule, if you have a pen, I would write that down because that is a rule to live by. And also ask your CPA advisor, whoever they are, whether it's us or your other another CPA, ask them before you make the decisions. So I got a call yesterday from a doctor in South Carolina. He's like, hey, I want to buy a machine that's going to cost me $85,000. My equipment rep said I'd get a 40 % tax deduction.
Just about that much.
speaker-0 (26:23)
That was a clever salesperson.
speaker-2 (26:26)
Yeah, they all do it. We love equipping reps. No badging equipment reps. But understanding, depending upon your entity type, whether or not you will be able to deduct that in the current year is a huge thing that you have to understand. Chris and I have seen so many doctors over the years that have come to us after the fact. And I think we've done a great job of educating, hey, I bought this equipment, it's $100,000.
When we do the tax return, it's like, you're not involved deducted. They're like, why not? The equipment reps that I could. So just make call your advisor before you do it. That's the best thing you can do for yourself.
speaker-0 (27:02)
Well, and I, to that point, I just say like, you should have experts on your board as a business owner, people that you genuinely trust for taxes. And like you said, ask them, ask your rep about the best products and what they're seeing of results within the patient's mouth. Cause that's where they're experts. But I'm just going to put a massive plug, like, gosh, the number of dollars I have spent personally, because I didn't ask,
If we can save anybody even a couple of grand, like you're welcome. You're welcome. Just ask, ask before you do it.
speaker-2 (27:36)
Right, absolutely. Then I kind of look at what are some things that you can do to make sure you're not blindsided by that tax surprise? ? One thing we do is we always recommend in your business, you have to run multiple bank accounts. And one of those bank accounts is a tax savings account. Your business should fund and pay for your personal tax bill. So think about like ? grandmother's cash envelope system.
create different buckets in the business, move the money out of your OpEx account because, know, like for me, if I have 20 bucks, $20 in cash in my pocket, I'm going to spend it. But if I put it away in the bucket where it's intended, it'll be there when I need it.
speaker-1 (28:18)
My bucket, right?
speaker-0 (28:19)
Yes, you can just send them my way this year Chris. It's fine Brent. It's fine I'll take him but Brent I want to speak so highly to that because ? It really does help. I will also put a plug of like have really good financial planners and tax planners with you because I am actually really really good at saving money for taxes What I really get frustrated with is when it comes to December and I have been saving and I have been putting that away ?
And then they're like, Kiera, you owe an extra X amount. And I'm like, what the heck? I've even saved this. So that's where I also think it's really pro to have really good CPAs that are that actually no tax. So I am curious. You guys tell me the truth, because I don't know how this works. I'm not a CPA, but I swear every year I get a call December 1st and it's like almost a double what I've already saved for the whole year. And I'm a saver. Like I don't spend a dime in my business.
speaker-1 (29:14)
call you get all year long, Kiera.
speaker-0 (29:16)
It's not well, I have a monthly call with them and we even plan for taxes, but this year my quarterly taxes It's okay guys. I'm interviewing new cpas. It's okay. my cpn doesn't listen to the podcast I don't think if so, it's great. We've had a good run for several years But like that's where I get a surprise. Is it common? Should you be getting a surprise call on december 1st? If you've got good tax people, and you've been planning and preparing and putting money aside all year long is that
speaker-1 (29:41)
As you answer this question for her and I would go over safe harbor estimates, but Kiera to set you up for what Brent's going to say. What happens is somebody tells you a number and you kind of start to operate like a zombie and you're like, okay, I put that number away, put it away and you did it. And you're like, okay, I put the number where you told me, but at the same time you're trying to grow your business.
speaker-0 (30:06)
To that point though Chris I'm gonna like back on this because I think I'm actually a really smart business owner But every freaking year this happens. I'm trying to fix this and hopefully someone
speaker-1 (30:15)
I think it has to do with your growth.
speaker-0 (30:18)
I
overestimated what my growth would be this year. So I said I was going to be double what I was last year and we're coming in at about a 70 % growth of what I was last year. So I gave my CPA a 30 % extra window to project on me and we're still coming up a hundred, I'll say a different number, but I'm coming up more than I had saved.
almost three times as much as they had saved for me. cause I get burned every single year. So I'm like a squirrel with nuts and I put away for tax savings in my company because I never know what I'm going to owe. And it scares me. So with that said, I agree with growth. If you can, if you can project where you're going to go and you're having consistent quarterly meetings with your CPA, is it common to still have a massive like uptick in December? I would ask.
speaker-1 (31:04)
No, it's not.
So look, to keep it simple, like, you know, I'm kind of talking on the managerial accounting side of things and Brent's talking on the tax side of things. If you're meeting with that accountant and you look at that bottom line profit, okay, you owe 40 % of that profit, whether you took it home or not. And then if you made any estimated tax payments, you can subtract those tax payments from that 40%. Okay. ? And then you can apply some deductions and maybe bring the number down.
speaker-0 (31:24)
Agreed.
I'm asking for a friend hashtag myself right now I mean I get better every year around taxes because I hate the surprise and I think most people do but I also wanted to point out I'm like I think I'm pretty savvy with business I talked to a ton of CPAs like this isn't like my first day running a business So and I'm happy to hear and with that 40 % So here's another thing that I've also which maybe I'm just dumb Maybe I'm just coming around the block to this so you guys can tell me ? but it's 40 % of the profit correct like
And that profit also includes my W-2 as a business owner. So I've got to like...
speaker-1 (32:10)
That profit is after your W-2. Hopefully your W-2, you have normal withholdings. Sure. you're like zero or one, you can kind of pretty much say, hopefully the federal and state taxes are all withheld from that for you. Right. have to worry about it. Okay. It's the profit that's left over after your W-2 and all the other expenses of the business you have 40 % on. So Brent, tell her about what happens at the beginning of the year.
When we talk, they those first estimates. think everybody starts to like, they get glued to the estimates and they never update them.
speaker-2 (32:41)
Yeah, so a couple things. So, Kiera,
speaker-0 (32:45)
Call
you in December, Brent. We're going to have this conversation in year two.
speaker-2 (32:49)
Maybe we should start in January for next.
speaker-0 (32:51)
I like that strategy is much better. I'm like I've even I started my tax meetings in July this year guys Like this is how much I'm paranoid and I'm like they're just shelling a ton on me again And I'm like how does it happen every year? I don't I don't understand so
speaker-2 (33:05)
Here's a trend I noticed over the last four years. you know, there was in 2017, there was the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, which changed the tax code. also changed. There's also been changes to the payroll tax tables. So I would take UW2, look at your federal tax withheld and divide that by your taxable wages in box one. More than likely, it's going to be in the 10 to 12 % range.
If you were in the 40 % tax bracket, you're already 30 % short on your taxes. Let's say you pay yourself $100,000. If you're 30 % short, that's a five digit dollar. So that's where I'd first start. And that is very, very, very common. You will not see any withholding in a W-2 being over 25 % unless you manually requested that from the payroll company.
speaker-0 (33:39)
Right.
speaker-2 (34:01)
bonuses or automatically taxed at 25%, but your regular payroll is probably in the 10 to 12 % range. So that's one reason it's happened. What Crystal's talking about, so let's say that we prepare your return in April. So let's say your 2020 return and every accountant will do what's called a safe harbor tax estimate, which basically says your estimates will be 110 % of your prior year tax.
speaker-1 (34:30)
The IRS wants you to put 10 % more than last year away, like pay them in advance. They like you to do it quarterly because collecting money once a year is a bad business model.
speaker-0 (34:40)
And it's a bad business model.
speaker-2 (34:42)
So like Chris said, when a client gets those estimates, and let's say they're $25,000 a quarter, they are fixed on $25,000 a quarter. So what we do is with all of our clients in June and early July, we actually run tax projections or mock tax returns the upcoming year. We pull their year to date profit, we get all their deductions and we project out if that original safe harbor estimate has changed.
Then we do it again in November and early December to make sure that you're still on track and also looking for additional ? tax strategies. But to answer your question from earlier, should you be surprised with a big number? No, not if you're doing proper planning.
speaker-0 (35:30)
with like a little variance, but I just want to point that out because I think so many business owners get scared of taxes and this year, don't worry guys, it's on my vision board by the age of 36. I will be a tax expert. I look at it every single night. I have no desire to be a CPA, but I really think it's important as business owners to educate yourself on taxes and like you said to plan and to save for it because otherwise it's just this always surprise bill that creates stress. For me as a business owner, I know often I just feel like
I don't dare spend money because I'm gonna get hit with this big unknown. And so I'm like this girl, I literally have four tax savings accounts in my business right now. And they're in like four different business accounts, so my CPA can't see them all. Because I'm like, you come to me every year with this huge surprise and every year it's like double what I thought you were gonna say. And like I'm grateful to be very successful in what we do. However, I don't think business owners should be surprised, especially if you have a good CPA. So I just wanted to like find out like, that normal?
I feel like I'm on the anomaly, but good to know on that.
speaker-1 (36:33)
Tax surprises cause cash flow problems.
speaker-2 (36:39)
So Kiera, let me quantify that one of
speaker-0 (36:41)
Guys,
don't worry. Everyone on the podcast, this is a Cura therapy session. You're welcome to be attending this. So we're glad.
speaker-2 (36:48)
So can there be a tax surprise? Yes. The reason the tax price might happen is if you told your CPA, hey, I'm going to be doing these improvements and they're going to be done by December 31st. If in December you tell them, well, it didn't work out and I'm not going to have all these expenses. And yes, you're going to, you're going to get a surprise because you didn't, your plan didn't follow through. The other thing is talking about the separate tax account in the business. It's,
speaker-0 (37:12)
That's fair.
speaker-2 (37:18)
Absolutely recommended, but the most important part is you cannot spend it on anything but your tax bill. You cannot not rob Peter to pay Paul. That is probably the biggest mistake you could make is saying, well, I'll take it now. I have eight months to put it back in.
speaker-0 (37:34)
That's like that makes my heart stop. I feel so stressed for people and also for anyone who wants to know like you I wish you could see the zoom right now with me Brent and Chris You know these guys love what we're talking about because Brent is literally getting like so excited and so animated talking about this So that's just when you know people are good at what they do I get so geek I'll geek out on dentistry and systems and like how we can help you and they're jazzing about some some tax benefits here So I agree. I think that if you aren't doing that, I also like the thought of 40 %
Do you guys recommend, because I know another piece to it, which I realized this year was like charitable contributions. I'm LDS. And so having charitable contributions, 10 % is something that I was like, that was funny. We didn't prepare for that. So that's like another check that I wasn't planning. And then also like SEP and 401ks. Do you guys have anything that you recommend for that of having a tax savings fund, but also building up those other funds and those payments that you'll be making to reduce your tax bill? Yes.
but those are also pretty big expenses, depending upon how your business does every year. How do you guys manage or navigate that? Or should I just be saving more? Because again, I'm like building these funds up to this, I've got four accounts, because I stress out about it.
speaker-2 (38:44)
So Chris, I'm gonna let you take that one on the cashflow. It's really cashflow planning.
speaker-1 (38:48)
Yeah, a lot of questions in there.
speaker-0 (38:50)
Cool, like I said, this is why I podcast guys, because I can ask my own personal questions.
speaker-1 (38:57)
In terms of okay, should you be doing okay. what do you want me to start a chair charitable chair?
speaker-0 (39:03)
Just
like I think that a lot of people might get quote-unquote surprised at the end of the year because not only do we have a tax bill to pay, we have charitable contributions that we're paying. We also have 7401Ks. Like there are quite a few other funds that need to be paid out again to reduce our tax bills to help us. But those are also cashflow that you need to have on hand as a business owner to be able to front that money. So I've been also thinking that could be why other people feel like it's a surprise at the end of the year, just all lumped into taxes when it is just other pieces to help reduce that tax bill for you.
speaker-1 (39:33)
if
something is important to you, then it needs a separate bank account. if charitable giving is important to you, I think you should have a separate bank account so you can visually see that you've got it ready to pay. And in order to make it tax deductible, it does need to be a 501C3. can't just be any random, say, it's... Right? So ? when it comes to all of the retirement accounts, mean, ? 401Ks and IRAs and simple IRAs and all of that,
speaker-0 (39:51)
about last year.
speaker-1 (40:02)
Roth, that's like the smallest fraction. That's like the, you know, the entry level league of the tax code in terms of savings. And it's, it's really kind of the stuff that the masses can do. I certainly think it's important to save and save for retirement. think when you're a business owner and let me say this, mean, upfront, I'm a contrarian. I think when you're a business owner, you have to be a contrarian and know that not everything applies to you the same way as everyone else. Sure. I, my bias is I have a much.
stronger tendency to say, you know, spend the money in your business or put the, I should say, invest, reinvest the money in your business for growth, because it's going, there's an asset value to that, to that business. need to learn what that is and what you one day can exit it for. And it creates, gives you the most, you know, income. ? If you put money into a 401k or you put money into marketing in your business, you get the same tax deduction. So that's a question. If you're looking for like year end stuff, you know,
You could put the money into the, into the retirement plan, or you could prepay some expenses for next year. ? You lot of people, think don't trust their business, which is weird because it's the thing you have the most control over, but they don't trust their own business. Typically it's cause they're not really great at managing their own cashflow and having discipline. And so they're, they're hesitant to invest the money in the business. And they'd rather go roll the dice and put it in the stock market. And at the time of this podcast recording, let me tell you.
We are in a recession. It has already begun. Everything is very high. Stock market's high. Real estate is high. Your business is one of the safest places to put your money right now. It provides you an inflation hedge, okay? And it creates revenue. ? And it's tax deductions. I'm a big believer in putting the money into your business or getting another business. I think Brent can talk about, know, people ask us like, what are some of the largest
speaker-0 (41:47)
Right.
speaker-1 (41:56)
deductions you can play in. Like what, are the bigger things you can do outside of a 401k? Tax deductions. Generally speaking, the tax code rewards you for doing things that improve our economy. And that's primarily investing in businesses, you know, adding another location, employing people and commercial real estate, commercial real estate is a big one. Again, commercial real estate's really high right now. It may not be the perfect time to be buying or building. Cause all of the costs are really high.
save that cash, even if you have to pay some taxes, save the cash for liquidity for the tough times. when this recession happens, most practice owners are going to stop investing in their business, they're to stop marketing. And you got to do the opposite. That is the time where you can do all of that at its lowest cost. that's when millionaires are really made is during recession. So I'm going on a tangent now. You got me passionate
speaker-0 (42:50)
No,
I like it. I like hearing it because I like thinking of other things. think so often you said it really well of business owners want to contract. They want to not reinvest in themselves. It's like, well, like let's put it in the stock market because that's what I heard that we should do. But I really do love that mindset. And that's why I love podcasting. That's why I love talking to different people. This is why I bring you guys on here because I purposely, intentionally bring different ways of thinking out there. You've got to make your own decisions.
But I'm a big like when people are zigging, I want to zag. So right now real estate's hot. Commercial's hot. The stock market's hot. Like I literally am sitting here just thinking like, here, just sit on some cash. Like, like you said, I might have to pay more taxes on it, but sit on that cash because you know, it's going to drop. And during that time, that's when you do the exact opposite of what everyone else is doing. So I really love that advice. And I think it's wise and it's prudent. I also love what you said, Brent, of having the 40%.
A lot of people say do 30%, but agreed a lot of dentists do tip into that 40 % tax bracket. And I would much rather over prepare than under prepare. Chris, to your point, I really love also having the buckets for like we said, charitable contributions, if you're going to do ? 401ks, but I really, agree with you too. I think reinvest in your business. Look to see, I do end of year spending. I look to see what I could reinvest in, what things are gonna propel us the most. I look at marketing, I look at website rebuilds, I look at.
Different softwares that are going to propel us forward different ways to make our our practice more efficient What things are really going to invest in our company and our team? To make it and then I just do fun things like, know trips places I definitely don't get much ROI on that except for emotional ROI, but I know I know this is a longer podcast guys I really hope and I also hope team members listening realize that this is not just for business owners. I think that this is also
Individual tax prepping make sure you are preparing look for ways that you can reinvest in yourself What things could you prepare for what things can you build out? Do you have separate savings accounts for different things that you're going to maybe you don't have to save for taxes But guess what maybe one day you will be a business owner So teach yourself the discipline to save now to look for reinvestment. I also think is super valuable. So I want
speaker-1 (45:05)
team members, for those team members, what side hustle can you create? What side of business can you create? know, and what, what commercial or what even residential property, rental property could you create to give yourself rental income? And there are deductions that come along with that. But if all you do is just do your day to day job, whether you own a business or don't own a business, you're not going to save anything in taxes, nothing significant. got it. You got to create some value in the world out there.
speaker-0 (45:29)
Agreed. say deliver the biggest and best value. So you guys teased me. So I want to wrap up our podcast with some things to not be doing. You guys have kind of like a hit list right now of some things, some tips that a lot of us might be doing that are cracking down. I know I have been privy to some of these things as well. So take us away. We'll wrap this up with just some, some of that hit list of what not to do. ? and
you know, as we get in there, thank you guys for sharing all that you have. Thank you for doing a personal session with me already. So I'm excited for the hit list now.
speaker-2 (46:01)
So I would say the biggest one that I've seen is the fascination that doctors have with crypto.
speaker-1 (46:01)
Go ahead, Brent.
speaker-0 (46:12)
Brent, it's because we're bored. We don't know what else to do with ourselves, so we're like, why not throw a little into crypto?
speaker-2 (46:17)
Here's the problem. So I have about a half a dozen doctors over last six months. They called me and said, Hey, I put $200,000 into the crypto market, Bitcoin. And I'm like, really? Where did you, where did you write the check from for that investment from the practice? Here's the problem. If that practice is an S corporation and they invest that money in crypto and they hit it big, they could potentially blow up their IRS S corp election.
and the IRS will take it away from you. So if you're gonna do investments, do not write the check from your practice. You can take the money home as a distribution, then put it into crypto, but do not do it through your business.
speaker-0 (47:01)
This is a moment where I just had like a, I'm like, good. I'm glad I did that at least right. even knowing. Why is that?
speaker-1 (47:03)
Sorry.
So that one, I mean, that one can cause some serious damage. ? But the other ones that I think nobody wants to hear when they're listening to this, and I get in all these battles on social media, Facebook groups and all that. But the two things that come up over and over and over again that everybody's kind of cheating on and they're going to get busted on is number one, paying employees and especially dentists and hygienists, paying them as 1099 contractors.
This is going to get you in trouble not only with the IRS, but with the Department of Labor. And there are some significant penalties. There is a black and white 20 question checklist that the IRS provides. You can Google that. You can find it directly on the IRS website. And it goes through a checklist of yes or no questions to determine if you qualify to be a 1099 independent contractor or if you fit the requirements of a W-2. And to simplify it,
The main thing is the element of control who controls the schedule, who tells you which patients you're seeing and when who's providing all the materials and the tools and equipment. And 99 % of the time, anyone in dentistry falls under the category of an employee. Pretty much have to be a specialist that owns their own separate practice already coming in part time in order for you to 10 99 them. And if you're 10 99ing them, you're 10 and you have to do it to their business. The other thing that doesn't work is when, you know, they're like,
Oh, I'm an individual doctor. I'll just set up an S corp and you can 1099 my escort. The IRS is not stupid. Again, they're they're looking at what are your what is your role within that that place that you're receiving the income from the revenue from. So anyway, everybody hates that. But I'm telling you, I
speaker-0 (48:58)
I
don't think it's a, it's not a good place to play with fire. Um, I have a really, really, really awesome unemployment lawyer, um, and employment lawyer. He represents Uber Lyft Red Bull. He's in, um, San Francisco. If you guys need him, he's amazing. Reach out to us. Hello@TheDentalATeam.com. Um, but he told me he said, Kiera Uber and Lyft, which I personally think I'm no lawyer guys. I'm not there. Uber and Lyft to me are the epitome of 10 99 contractors.
but they are, ? they're coming down, they're cracking down on it. And ? I have heard that it is no longer just a small offense. It's a pretty big offense if you misclassify. To me, really, I'm a risky person, but I believe in being smart and also paying people the way they should be paid. As much as it's not fun, we transitioned our whole company and I just think play that one safe because labor laws are not something to ever mess with, in my opinion.
speaker-1 (49:51)
Yep. And you know, the government has shelled out a lot of money through this pandemic and they've got to collect it and get it back. And they're going to get that back from small business owners. And, ? you know, our, our dependent care systems of Medicare and social security are very fragile right now. And that's the one thing they do not want you to screw with. And so they collect that money through W2 payroll. They're going to, they're going to force more and more than everybody's W2, especially in the occupation of dentistry. Second thing is the cars. Okay. Everybody wants to run their cars through the business.
You might be allowed to run a car through your business. It depends on what type of business you're in. If you're in real estate and you're showing houses and you're driving your clients around, you can probably write your car off through your business. But in dentistry, you're going to sit across the table from an auditor and they're going to say, what does a car have to do with the business of dentistry? The IRS tax code says that your business expenses must be ordinary and necessary to the business for them to be deductible.
What does the car have to do with the business of dentistry? How is a vehicle ? justified as 100 % business use as a necessary use in order to do dentistry?
speaker-0 (51:00)
What if it's a wrapped vehicle that's marketing?
speaker-1 (51:03)
That's different. there are very specific guidelines in the IRS tax code about what is marketing for a vehicle. must be fully wrapped. It can't just be magnets. It can't just be stickers. But it has to be significant that's used for marketing. What we find is not a lot of doctors want to wrap their test up.
speaker-0 (51:23)
Because they're ticked off with the patient that Ruekinaal didn't go super well and they're cutting people off on their drive home and you don't really want your flashy business to be that car.
speaker-1 (51:31)
Right. I mean, and to make it legitimate, mean, the car has to be legally registered in the business name. It has to be covered under business insurance, not your personal insurance. The loan has to be under the business name, not your personal name. And there's a, you know, most people are not doing that. They're doing, they're buying it personally. They're just making the payment out of their, out of their business. And they think that they can deduct the whole thing. And this is not true. There's even greater scrutiny if the business tries to buy, if the dental business tries to buy a vehicle.
and depreciate it, take it as 100 % use. So I know people hate to hear that, but I would just caution everyone listening, stay away from 1099 and cars in your business. But everyone's.
speaker-2 (52:12)
doing
it!
speaker-0 (52:13)
I heard a really great quote one day and they said Kiera everything's deductible until you get audited and I was like That's really good advice. I appreciate that. So guys, ? Chris and Brent. Thank you guys for coming on the podcast Thank you for being people that I can call Brent. Thank you for being my December, you know midnight hour friend I loved last year. You said care. There's really not much we can do. Maybe we should have done this in January. So ?
But truly, I just appreciate you guys helping so many doctors. know you help a lot of our clients. Shout out to those clients that we mutually work together. I love working with CPA companies. I think we're a good peanut butter and jelly together. We help grow the practice, make them more profitable. You guys make sure that their books are in line. Give us the guiding stars of what levers to turn to help the practices. You take care of the taxes. So it's a really good yin and yang and
I hope all of you listening today found a lot of value. Team members, look at this for yourselves. Get the side hustle. I hope this spurred some, some topics, some conversation. Team members, can also help your practices reduce that tax bill. look for ways that you can spend end of year, just different things. So I definitely think team members have a lot of play in this as well. So Chris and Brent, thank you guys so much. It's super fun. If people want to connect with you, ? maybe they're done with their CPA. Maybe they just want to find out if.
There might be another option out there. How can they connect with you? I know you guys specialize in DSOs, larger group practices, but also the solo practices as well. How can people connect if they're interested?
speaker-1 (53:40)
Sure, so check us out online at our website, Profi2020.com. That's P-R-O-F-I-2-0-2-0.com. ?
speaker-0 (53:47)
You did
that because 2020 was such a great year that you guys want to remember. ?
speaker-1 (53:53)
That marketing plan went out the window. It was 20-20 clarity to give you clarity on your finance.
speaker-0 (53:54)
No.
I
just thought I'd throw it out there. So no one will forget Pro-Fi 2020. 2020 was most memorable year guys. Don't forget it. They don't want to forget it ever.
speaker-1 (54:07)
We have tons of free videos, a lot of great content on there. Check us out on our YouTube channel, all social media, know, at Profi2020. We're very easy to find. ? But we're managerial accountants. It's way different than financial accountants out there. Make sure you look up that difference and know what you're asking for. ? And we always do free consultations for anyone who would like it.
speaker-0 (54:29)
Awesome. Well, Chris and Brent, thank you again so much, guys. Go check them out, Profi2020. Chris and Brent, they are the owners of the organization. So super grateful for you guys coming on here.
Kiera Dent (54:38)
I hope you all loved today's episode as much as I did. It is crazy to think that this many episodes have been released since we started the Dental A Team Podcast. And I started looking to say, my goodness, our listeners need to be reminded of some of the things they may have learned a year ago or two years ago or five years ago, because so many things in our practices weren't relevant back then when we heard them, but they are relevant today. And I would be doing you a huge disservice if I didn't re-release some of these episodes for you to remember, to refine.
to optimize and really truly if you ever need a topic or you're like, my gosh, I wonder if the Dental A Team has anything like this, go onto our website, TheDentalATeam.com, click on our podcast tab and you can literally search any topic. So whether it's overhead or hiring or firing or team morale or engagement or case acceptance or hygiene
onboarding or whatever it is, we have so many episodes for you. And so I am going to intentionally be
re-releasing some of the top best episodes for you, pulling back some of the ones that I needed to remember, some of the things that I feel for you to really, really relearn right now and to re-remember, or if it's the first time, welcome. I'm so happy you're listening to it, but I hope you truly enjoyed today's episode. I hope that you share this with somebody. I hope that you go and implement today because we only have one day. We only get today. And so making today the best that it possibly can be. If we can help you in any way, shape or form, reach out Hello@TheDentalATeam.com.
And as always, thanks for listening and we'll catch you next time on the Dental A Team Podcast.