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AUDIO - HSP #254 - Matthew Petchel
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VIDEO - HSP #254 - Matthew Petchel
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• What is a brand?
• Why is a brand important to a dental practice?
• Why should a dental practice be a brand?
• How do you define your brand?
• How do you build your brand?
• How can thinking like a consumer brand help a dental practice?
• How does branding work with my other marketing?
A creative professional with extensive experience creating, developing and implementing innovative marketing and advertising strategies for dental equipment companies. Matthew has a unique blend of business and creative and excels at seeing the big picture, establishing lasting relationships with clients and getting things done. Matthew is an accomplished author and speaks regularly on dental practice branding. His book is available on Amazon.
Email - matthew@brandtarget.com
Phone - (704) 996-9281
Website - www.brandtarget.com
Book - http://www.amazon.com/Branding-Practice-Absolute-Necessity-Dentists/dp/1503044688/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1440009514&sr=8-4&keywords=branding+in+practice
Howard: It is a huge honor today to be interviewing Matthew Petchel. Did I say that right, Petchel?
Matthew: Yeah Petchel you got it.
Howard: You're an interesting guy. You specialize in creating brand
Matthew: Right.
Howard: I thought that would be interesting because in dentistry we can't do what we want to do. We want to fix broken teeth. We want toothaches, we want someone who wants a smile. We can't do anything unless someone comes and knocks on our door and gives a dollar. I was look at you and all you have done in you're an amazing man. I was wondering does the dental office create a brand in the way that like Hershey's Chocolate, or Reese's Peanut Butter Cups or Kraft or Ferrari. Do dentists create a brand in your sense of the word brand?
Matthew: Right that's a great question actually and it's kind of a yes and it's a long answer. The short answer is yes and no. Dentists are more in service industry. Not really a tangible product. You don't have a piece of chocolate or a car or a widget or anything. Wrapping the brand around the service is what makes it slightly different. To answer the question can a dental practice or a dentist be a brand, absolutely. Should they be? I believe it more and more every day.
I haven't been in the industry as long as you. You started this industry pretty much. It took me awhile to realize I've been in fifteen years and Mainly was working for fifteen years on the manufacturing side. Companies like KaVo, companies like CEREC, companies like Invisalign, big companies right. Those companies have a product right that it's clear you make the connection brand is important. I need to have a good brands of people see it here and remember and buy it, pay more for it whatever it is.
In the last few years it's kind of what led me to write my book is that I realize more and more it's so important for a dental practice to have a brand. It doesn't just create itself I think that's maybe a misconception that a lot of people have is that brands just happen on their own. It's very calculated what makes a great brand how to get started the methodology whether it's between the name or the image of the brand itself. It's super super important and more and more I believe Dental practices is can use it should have it's important.
Howard: Talk more about what you've done in your past in dentistry.
Matthew: I've been like I said fifteen years in the industry on the agency side. For the first-
Howard: You have your own agency that's brandtarget.com?
Matthew: Correct. Yeah my agency is Brand Target. I work with manufacturers of all kinds. I'm focused on the dental industry. Work with companies of all different sizes. I work with companies ranging from try five million a year to hundreds of millions dollars a year. I do work for Isolite Systems. I do work for macpractice which is a the software company. I do work for Sirona, CEREC, KaVo Kerr group the list goes on. Large companies, small companies but mainly they have products and I help them market and brand their product. That's the day job that I do that-
Howard: Where are you at doing that?
Matthew: I'm in Charlotte North Carolina.
Howard: That's really a booming area in the United States. It's like people don't want the overhead of Manhattan, the cold weather of Boston, the crazy politics of DC and they're just going to Charlotte.
Matthew: Yeah we joke that every time there's a major blizzard in the Northeast property values go up ten percent just because people just-
Howard: What dental companies are there? Sirona is there.
Matthew: Sirona is here. KaVo Kerr group is here. CEREC is here, Comet, rotary insurance like Byrd's is here. Drake Dental Labs is here. Who just moved here? It escaped me the name of the company, it'll come to me. There's probably five others I can't remember. Preventech is here and there are there are probably ten to fifteen major major companies here in Charlotte.
Howard: Most of all Michael Augins is there.
Matthew: Micheal Augins I think he is actually running for mayor. I don't know if it's this year or next year.
Howard: Are you serious? Is he?
Matthew: No, no. He could but he's not just yet.
Howard: I love that guy. He's just a straight out MBA right?
Matthew: Yeah he is, he's just a smart guy-
Howard: I think he might be the smartest guy in dentistry.
Matthew: He definitely up there for sure. There are a lot of smart people but he is up there and he's also just a good guy and likable. He's always been really generous with his time with me. I appreciate him as a friend. I've played poker with him from time to time so he's a good guy.
Howard: In your fifteen years have you ever taken on a client or just an individual dental office do you do that?
Matthew: It's not something I normally do now. I have helped ... I've got friends, you're in the industry and end up with friends who are dentists right?
Howard: I'm sorry to hear that. My boys always tell me they go, "Dad who are your friends that aren't dentists?" It's like I have to go all the way back to my high school friends that crash at my house at my house ever once in a while. Other than high school friends I don't really have any that aren't dentists.
Matthew: Yes it's funny how that happens. I don't normally do ... It's not part of my my regular sort of business operation to do it that way but I have some friends to do, I have I have created some brands first some practices locally here just to sort of favors. It's funded to dabble in it a little bit it's a totally different type of market but it's fun to do.
Howard: Are you the owner of brandtarget.com?
Matthew: Yes I am.
Howard: Okay. I want to ask you the questions that I get one of the reasons I want to have you on there. This is kind of a long question sorry but okay. When you look at the four biggest people who sell stuff in the Unites States, it's Wal-Mart, Costco and Kroger and then Amazon.
Matthew: Right.
Howard: Kroger is like Heartland Dental. When Kroger goes into Kansas and buys the grocery store chains they keep their original name Dillon's. When Heartland comes and buys your dental office they keep your name. Other corporate offices like Pacific Dental Services, every time they open up an office and Pacific Dental Services they brand their name.
The reason I'm asking, why do you think Heartland Dental, Rick Workman who we've had on this podcast, a great friend of mine. Why do you think he keeps the brand name of the local dentist and then follow this in a long winded way. A lot of dentist are thinking to myself, Well if I brand my dental office Howard Farran then everybody that calls wants Howard Farran I want leverage. I want to have a couple of associates and that is why in 1987 I didn't do any marketing with Howard Farran. I called mine Today's Dental. I wanted all my marketing to be called Today's Dental and I wanted to make it easier for my receptionist to give it to the new guy. I don't want to just market and advertise and work myself into the grave. Go back to the Heartland. Why do you think Rick Workman's amazing mind doesn't try to build a brand Heartland Dental?
Matthew: I don't think this is one of those where there's a right or wrong. I really think that there's just several ways to-
Howard: Well then I'm going to kick you out of my church because everything's black and white.
Matthew: Well it's mostly black and white. This one's a little bit grey so that model works because she's leveraging individual brands. They have to be more selective on who they get because they're stuck with it. If that's the model I'm is buying Howard Farran Dentistry. I'm buying Matthew Petchel Dentistry. I got to make sure that their brand is clean, it's good, it's established. There is some leverage of that person or transition is an opportunity. It's just a different model. I don't know if you want me to say it's right or wrong it's just different if it works for them I think it's great.
I think personally the better model is I think you and I may agree on this is that the brand is above the practitioner. The brand is more easily transferable. It's more easily communicated. It's not a person's name, we're not a small town. It's Dr. Smith's Corner Dentistry Office. It's a bigger thing. I think that's more of the future but I think it works for Heartland, maybe that's what differentiates them. Which is another big component of branding is you've got to differentiate yourself in some way maybe that's where they're picking up the pieces there.
Where as different different DSO would say, "Hey you're coming in and we're changing the name of the door and you're part of our corporate system and not just how it goes" and some people say, "Cool, I like that I'm ready to be hands off I'm ready to move on to something different and not run this." The other guys the other half is saying, "I'm still believe in my name and I want to keep it" and they've got a partner who's going to do that. I think it works both ways.
Howard: It's funny when I came to move from ... I graduated from dental school in Kansas. I came out to Arizona and they had a dozen different grocery stores and I finally found one I like, Fry's. Then it only takes about six weeks to figure out oh Fry's! That's the one that owns my favorite store in Kansas, Dillon's. I was thought that was bizarre that you're always talk to dentists and they'll say oh I saw Hinky Dinky. I'm like where? Hinky Dinky? That's a name of a grocery and then you find out later, oh yeah that's the same chain.
If you were a dentist and you graduated from dental school and you're going back into small town USA and there were two identical practices for sell. One of them was all branded Dr Matthew Petchel's, the other one was branded TodaysDental.com, wouldn't the smarter move to be to buy TodaysDental.com and then you'd be DrMatthewPetchel@TodaysDental.com? Instead of everyone coming in and knowing that you're not that the guy that it's named after and you're the new guy and where is the original ...
Matthew: Agree and that's the biggest thing. I think that's where you were ahead of your time when you branded your practice the way you did back then. It wasn't really being done that much. It certainly makes it easier to communicate the brand because now I've got another way to communicate who I am and what I do, more than just my name. Let's say my name sounds funny and people don't like hard sounding last names it could be a turnoff.
Whereas if I have the right name Progressive Dentistry of Scottsdale I'm already starting to create some sense of vision of what the person can expect just in the name before they even walk into the door. Before they even talked to anybody on the staff, before they do anything there's already there. Where is it just your name it almost seems out of date and that's again that's just my opinion I don't think it's an either or, it's a personal preference on how to do it.
Howard: Well to dig up Mark Ogilvy from his grave, the father of advertising and let him ... I want to go back to basics. What is the brand?
Matthew: Yes, a brand is one of the things I think it's like a like a unicorn and sometimes have people have told describing what it is defining it. I believe it's a mix of everything's. A mix of all the things that you do that it inspires some kind of reaction with the consumer. Some sort of gut feeling some sort of emotion to buy. Is that all of those things together.
It's your name, it's your customer service, it's yours appearance, it's your lobby, it's your business card. It's your hold music, it's your the fish you have in your fish tank it's everything. It's truly all those things that add up to the brand. At the end is how does that person, the person you're trying to reach, how do they feel about you? If that feeling is what we're trying to tap into that's the brand. What's the feeling.
Howard: Okay. Talk about the pros and cons ... I'm going with some brands I don't mean do this selfishly but I'm just I live in Phoenix. Use the like on the same corner go see Dr Brad Sanwick, my buddy. Then across a see me, Today's Dental. Then you'll see across the street something more fancy sophisticated like the Phoenix Center Cosmetic Dentistry or the Arizona Center for Dental Implantology. What's the pros and cons of all those different types of names? With people driving by seeing the building.
Matthew: Depending on your location, right. Location of practice is one of those considerations that gets forgotten about or used to get forgotten about. Now it's more and more because you can do some demographic research to find out this street corner. How do people are coming by? What kind of people are driving by and all that.
A lot of times, if you think about it your store front is your old Google. It's the old Internet. In a way it's how people can find you without working too hard. The importance of that appearance that first impression that statement that you never get a second chance to make a first impression is so true. It's so true in our appearance. It's so true and how we talk and how we present ourselves. That appearance from the outside, somebody drives by and sees that name, if they see those three practices right next to each other and one of them communicate to them in some way it has a chance of standing out. It has a chance of starting a relationship which is what you're looking for.
Howard: I can sum of all dental demographics in one word. Just go where they ain't and I just doesn't seem to sink in with dental graduates. They always go pick the medical/dental building and they'll be the fourteenth guy in the medical/dental building. It's like really do you need demographic research at this point?
Matthew: It's hard to tell young people anything. They want to learn it on their own and they think they've got a way to do it. Or they think they're different or special or they've got the secret sauce or the magic potion to do it differently. The truth is and as you know as I know is that in doing this while you realize there is some special sauce secrets to it but a lot of it is already been proven or disproven. Location is super important. Demographics, having the right people that you want to serve. Having it not being over populated with or over served with providers not ... All the different things I think there's your point is valid and there's so many things we can learn. Just by I don't say common sense because it's a little more than that but learning from other people's mistakes and making good decisions to give yourself the best chance of success.
Howard: The neatest thing about being 53 is when you lived half a century on the same Third Rock from the sun you start to pick up patterns. One of the patterns you always see is the the pendulum sings way too far to left and then swings way too far to the ... I almost in wondering at 2015 if the whole dental marketing is just all digital digital Google Ads, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram. It's almost like they're kind of forgetting the old world of like having a great free standing building on a four lane intersection. An old billboard, signage from the street. Endorsing the local small town softball team for the kids. It almost seems like they've taken their eye off demographics, building, retail ... All the stuff that was awesome in the seventy's and eighty's.
Matthew: I agree with you. You realize that there's never any one thing that's going to save you. I think when, you are right. When the Internet sort of blew up in Google came in and said well this is a lot of people bought into the fact that if you just took care that everything else will take care of itself. Well we know that's not true. There are some people out there that may still believe that but Google's a great tool but it won't save you practice. Just like reputation marketing is a great tool it won't save practice. Just like any of these things. Social media is a great tool it won't save your practice. These all things work together and that's what's great about a cohesive brand is that you sort of have to find a way to make them all connect and make sense and communicate your your message to the end user.
Yes I think it got lost a little bit along the way and maybe it'll come back I actually think it is going to come back is the relationship part. Is the connecting with others. I think maybe in the last ten years maybe the new wave dentist thought they could just do it their own way. Just hey if I put put up a new building and do some good Internet marketing I'll survive and I don't need to connect with the community and do the study clubs and all that.
I think that's changing I think they do want to connect I think it's in us as humans that we want to connect with other like minded people. I think that'll help bring about sort of the education, hopefully the experienced style education of these young people learning from older veterans and visionaries who've been there done that. That's part of what you do. That's why you get up and have your town meeting. You do your podcast because you're sharing the wisdom that you've learned along the way to hopefully make the industry better. I started doing the same thing. I realize I've got a little bit of a voice in this industry so why not start talking about it.
Howard: I think that what goes around comes around. When the Internet thing started in '98, I was the only one who started a dental website that was just on the community relationship deal. The model was no dentist [inaudible 00:18:19] ever again. About 20 other people were going to dis intermediate the dental supply chain. Get rid of the Patterson, the Schein, the Benco, the Burkhart and sell you supplies direct. Every one of those I fumbled and I thought it was interesting that that Amazon couple years ago during the dental trade manufacturers association and they were going to start selling dental supplies. Nobody really signed on with them.
I think it's still the dental office at the end of the day supplies are small of our overall. Supplies are six percent, labor's twenty six percent. You're worried about your dental assistant clocking in six hours of overtime a week. Not where the hell you're buying gauze but I think it's that relationship connection to just one person in the outside world. I know we all like I was go to my Valerie and say, "Well what is the file system that the endodontist over there using, am I the only guy using 3mm?" You want that relationship with outside world and I don't know if the dentist is going to sever that for something as small as dental supplies.
Matthew: Agree.
Howard: What would you say to a ... It's a 50 or 60 year old dentist and he realized he's not going to retire at 62. He learned how to start placing implants or six month ortho something's turn them on, he's making good money. He's thinking about doing a smile make over on his brand. What would you say to that guy? What should he do? Can he call you or do you or you really prefer dental manufacturers? Things that are more tangible, you can pick up and hold?
Matthew: I'm more specialized work with manufacturers but my book which I have read here. I'm sure you have a copy of. It's kind of a step by step guide on how to build a brand. How to start over whether you're starting a new dentist out of school and you want some tips how to do it right or-
Howard: Hold it back up. What's the name of that book?
Matthew: Book is called Branding in Practice.
Howard: Branding in Practice is that written specifically for dentistry?
Matthew: Yes it's specially for dentists and for dental practices on how to get their brand right.
Howard: Hold this up. Branding in Practice forwarded by Dr. Joe Blaze. Oh my God that's my buddy he was from St Louis he was the dental editor of Dental Economics for twenty years.
Matthew: He sure was he's a good friend and I was honored actually to have him write the forward. He's a great guy and he believes in it. If you think about so let's use Joe-
Howard: You can buy that on Amazon now?
Matthew: It is on Amazon. Yes sir.
Howard: Just go to Branding in Practice by Matthew Petchel on Amazon and how much is it on Amazon?
Matthew: It is twenty five dollars.
Howard: Twenty five dollars and you know what your best marketing for that would be?
Matthew: Tell me.
Howard: Well we put 350 Online courses on dental town and they passed half a million views, half a million. What we're doing is if you did a course on your book where they sign up for the course and they also get a copy of you mailing them the book or whatever. That would be amazing.
Matthew: Right.
Howard: Because whenever we put a course out we pushed for about three hundred thousand dentist around the world. Do a book review online course. Do a course for your book because I prefer audio books. Dental Town is launching ... We started the Dental Town app and we got forty thousand dentist that have download the app. We got two hundred five thousand on the desktop PC. We've migrated forty thousand them over to the app but the app which has the podcast why this shows exploding. It's also starting in the first quarter of next year is going to have an audio book section. You should go read that. Did you go do an audio book on Amazon?
Matthew: I haven't made it into an audio book but I will.
Howard: Yeah yeah go do an audio book and put that on Amazon because Amazon's selling more audio books than Kindle books. They're all multitasking while they're commuting to work. Everybody's got an hour commute to work and audio books are ... But I'm sorry to interrupt you.
Tell us about your new book Branding in practice.
Matthew: Well and it Segway perfectly into your question which is what it's really I wrote it for exactly what your question was. It's that who that 50 year old guy who's kind of let is practice go a little bit. Finally paid off the debt. Finally making some money. Realize he's not going to retire as fast but the brand is a little older it's not quite as fresh. Maybe they got left with the brand. That happens a lot. Just like we were talking about. You get left with with a with a funny name and the name the practice or it's another dentist name. They're like okay now I've got some money and I've got some time and I want to do this and I'm going to be around longer and I'm going to redo this.
I wrote it with that person in mind is that it's kind of a step by step pretty simple guy. You have to define who you are, what your mission it's all covered in the book. Then you start putting the pieces together and I try to make it so it's not as threatening. It's not as long. The book is only one hundred pages and you can read it in a ... Go sit in a coffee shop for an hour and a half and you can probably read it or read it on an airplane.
It's funny I just talked last week to Dr Paul Foyerstein who've read the book he said what his favorite thing about it was he goes I feel like you were talking to me. I just felt like you were just talking directly to me which I would enjoy hearing just because because it was written that way. It was written try to be a one on one conversation of hey just do these simple things. You'll start to see a difference. It covers me things about visual ... The branding encompasses a lot of things.
It talks about customer service, talks about staff, talks about the appearance and the logo and the website and all the things that people assume. Then some things that may be that affect your brand maybe you're not thinking affect your brand it's all in there.
Howard: That's funny that guy said that he thought he read the book that you were talking to him. Right now I think I'm talking to Adam Levine. You have been told that before I haven't you?
Matthew: No never Adam Levine. As a matter of fact I grew my beard for Halloween because I was a wolverine. The good character who was some kind of X men or something I don't really even know. That was my plan and now it's just fuzzy beard and my wife hates and won't talk to me so that's where we are.
Howard: What's your favorite Maroon 5 song since you look just like Adam Levine?
Matthew: Favorite Maroon 5 song is probably, it's an old one. I like them old like their first album from like ten years ago. What's the name of that song? It'll come to me in a flash a minute and then I'll say it.
Howard: A good seat you're talking to thousands. Who should be reading this book? Who is this book meant for? On Shark Tank they always say to you was said here Adam Levine, Matthew Petchel, what problem are you going to solve? Tell me what problem this book's going to solve.
Matthew: This book is going to solve the problem of, Do I have the right brand for my practice? Even if you think you do, maybe you do but maybe there are some bits that you can improve. It's written for everybody. This book is universally appealing to any dentist, man, woman, young, old, rural, city, technology dentist, failing dentist It doesn't matter. There's something in here that I promise everyone will find something in. They're little tips just along the way to just sort of help connect and change maybe the way you're thinking. You know how we are we get set on a path right we're all in motion we kind of do things.
One of my least favorite things I hear from people is, Well yes and why are you doing it that way? They say well it's because it's the way we've always done it. To me that's like really frustrating. This book maybe starts to break that up a little bit and it makes you question. You may have more questions after reading this book like is this right? Am I doing this right? Is the staff trained right? Is that the office appearance right? Is my name right? Should I be doing more sponsorships? Should I change my focus and do more I don't know sleep apnea because that's kind of where it is asked lot of questions and hopefully get you thinking, do I have a right. The brand is the pillar is the first step. A lot of times people get stuck with a brand or-
Howard: I want to ask you a question and it's going to piss off our common buddy Michael Augins of Sirona.
Matthew: All right.
Howard: Tell us the difference in how you think the people view dentistry, the patient the customer the people versus the dentist. I'll give you a hint with Michael Augins. When you get a bunch of ... I have a CEREC one. The smartest guy in CEREC hands down was Samir Purry. I had CEREC one when he was in grammar school then I had a CEREC two then at a CEREC I had this thing forever.
When you get a bunch of CEREC users in a corner, they will tell you that all the people are calling for same day crowns. That's what everybody wants right but I have a dental office and I get to give gazillion phone calls a day. That happens once a month maybe. Most people ask for how much is it? Do you take my insurance? Do I have to get a shot? Is it going to be sore? What is it going to look like? Is it going to look funny?
Getting it in the same day is not on the list. My question is where do you think the disconnect is between a dentist looking at his emotionally disconnected dental office yet how does everybody in Parsons Kansas driving by this guy's dental office next to Wal-Mart look at it differently? Where do you think the disconnect is?
Matthew: Well, I don't know if it's necessary disconnect. I think it might just be the way some products are marketed. There are different reasons, let's say you buy a Cadillac for instance. You may buy the Cadillac because it's American made. I may buy the same Cadillac because it's got four hundred horsepower and it looks different than a Mercedes or BMW or whatever.
We both love the car it's a different reason. Do people call up Doctors and say I'm looking for one that's in dentistry? I think that happens. Do I think that's the reason to buy a CEREC? No way. You got to make it work inside your walls to make the our ROI work, to make the workflow work which is a much bigger issue and sell it to your existing patients not the people you don't have.
Howard: It's funny you should say that because like 13, 14 years ago I was working with Sirona who was working with CEREC in a project and we were they were talking about doing a big consumer initiative like literally commercials on TV trying to get consumers to go find a CEREC and go search it out go find it.
Matthew: I think after just some research and some studies it just became clear that patients while they like it. It's not the number one thing for them. They love it actually patients for sure they love it but insurance is a bigger issue, convenience is a bigger issue. Do I like my dentist? I'm not going to switch dentist because of that it just doesn't really happen.
Howard: It's like on Google as CEO. These guys set up their SCO to find them because they do like sleep apnea dentist or they do cosmetic dentistry and they do veneers. They do all these things but when you look at actual searches they're like the consumer search is like dentist who takes Blue Cross Blue Shield, dentist who take Connecticut General. Money's the answer, what's the question. The other thing I think we all forget is especially when you go overseas America's a huge country. It's a third of a billion people spread out over three and a half ... There's many little Americas which everyone sees when they look at Europe. No one compares Germany to Ireland, Turkey to Greece to Portugal but they just lump all of America in this one big bath tub, it is too big a bathtub to put your finger on would you say?
Matthew: I agree. That's were segmentation comes into play. That's just like for a manufacture we try to cut the market into smaller bits and say who we want to go after. Which is vertical or which segment of dentist is most likely to buy our product. It's the same thing for a dentist right? You most likely can't get everybody in your zip code but you need to go after the people you want to serve. Or the people that match up with your brand well. Whether if you're high tech dentist then you advertise in certain publications and communicate that brand you have to live up to it and that's that's a big part to living up to the brand.
Howard: I know my homies on Delta. I've been on that website three to six hours a day since '98 seven days a week. The big fear is my buddy Rick Workman corporate dentistry. They're just so afraid of corporate dentistry. It's so funny because you can have a town of like three hundred thousand people literally four hundred dentist that as one corporate dental office come sit down right in the middle of town and everybody just starts scream and yell.
They couldn't even be taking point zero zero zero zero one percent market. I want to ask you this. Do you think corporate dentistry is doing better brand marketing brand building do you think they're doing a better brand job? If these solo dentist want to hang on to their professional sovereignty that they've got to do a better job because there's more brand competition from your Heartland's and Pacific's and Aspen Dental and all those?
Matthew: Well yeah. I think I think they are quite frankly I think for a few reasons the pretty simple reason really. One is they have the profession the resources to do it right you can't build a brand with hundred dollars in five minutes time. Those companies are spent the time starting from scratch thought the strategy and created a brand that they wanted to and then delivered into dentistry. They also know what their doing. It's their business.
I think you talk about this too is that dentist in general are great at what they do which is the clinical side. Running the business is not for everybody. Being an entrepreneur and when I say running a business being a real entrepreneur. To run a practice buy yourself a successful practice you have to be an entrepreneur. Would you agree?
Howard: Absolutely.
Matthew: Not all dentists are entrepreneurs but they get into the field because they like little bits of it. Then they soon realize I gotta run this business, I'm going to be an entrepreneur and I don't love it. Those are the guys that are saying and you know what let me let me move this practice to a group practice and let me go back to doing what I've got it is for which is just delivering dentistry and changing people's lives do a great profession all that. You've got to take out the entrepreneur side of it. The building the brand is part of the entrepreneur side. If that's your job and you don't like hiring and firing, it's just like hiring firing just part of the job that's necessary. It's part of it. Marketing and branding is part of running a business like it or not. If you don't like it then you either have to get out of it or you hire somebody else to do it.
Howard: Well what I'm trying to get him to do is leave their damn wife alone. Get an office manager and then and invest time and money in her trying to get her like a fellowship in the American Association of Dental Office Manager or something of that. A lot of times they just want to go in and fix teeth. Then they grab their honey bunny whose heart is home with the two kids. They make her start going to work of them every day and then it destroys the family the marriage is a disaster.
Yeah if you don't If you don't have the entrepreneur instincts and you don't love that game then get it get a Batman and Robin, a Mickey and Mallory Knox get a partner and let them run and do it. Now me of these brands I even though all of our audience is pretty much dentist, is there any of these up brand projects that you could go over what he did because these dentist use these brands KaVo, CEREC, Isolite, macpractice, Comet, Great dental lab, can you talk about any the work you've done with them? How you tries to improve their brand or is that all confidential?
Matthew: None of it's confidential. One of the projects I did last year, two years ago was I was involved is probably one of the bigger projects ever that I was involved with was the launch of the KaVo Kerr group brand. That's the coming together of the sixteen Dental brands that we're under Dan Hurst. That it was one that was everything from delivery of the logo to the-
Howard: Dan Hurst took its entire dental vision portfolio and re-branded it KaVo Kerr?
Matthew: Correct. Two years ago everybody was referring to all those brands which is like Kerr, KaVo, Pelton & Crane, iKat, [Swordix 00:35:23], I probably will leave a bunch out if I've tried to name all sixteen but-
Howard: Keep going, keep going.
Matthew: Instrumentarium, De-cix, that's half. I got half.
Howard: Ormco?
Matthew: Ormco in there for sure. Half of them are consumables, half are equipment. They were all referred to as two years ago they were all referred to as the Dan Hurst dental brand. We want to change the perception of this so we need to rebury and something different. It started with the renaming of it then the visual identity, the tagline, the web, the video, the collaterally goes with it Email Marketing, print ads.
Then all the way through a year and a half ago the the big launch party is the Chicago midwinter that Lou Shuman hosted but I was involved in planning that and getting it all together. That was a probably one year project start to finish to get that thing. It was awesome to work with all those brands was really cool. I look back is one-
Howard: What percent of [Dannerheard 00:36:43] is dental related mean because if they are the medical things too. Do you know what a percent-
Matthew: They're also in aerospace, they're in oil and gas I think they're lots of industries. They're in energy I think if there is there's money in an industry I think they're in it. I think dental is maybe ten percent of what they do.
Howard: Is that all it is? Say with 3M dental's probably not even a rounding error.
Matthew: I don't think it's as big as we might think but if there are a big player in it that's for sure. They're a big part of it, they're good company too.
Howard: What do you think their brand challenges will be now that our buddy Michael Augins of Sirona merged with the DENTSPLY? Is it going to called DENTSPLY/Sirona?
Matthew: DENTSPLY/Sirona yeah.
Howard: DENTSPLY/Sirona.
Matthew: Those are two really strong brands so to me theirs is more just about the story they're going to tell. The narrative of why they're doing it, why is better. They got so much distribution and leverage and touch point that they can tell their stories to get the story right. The smaller dentist that's new to dentistry maybe doesn't care but the older one kind of wants to know what it means to them and how they're going to affect the products is going to be better-
Howard: I think they're actually living in fear. I think this is the way the homeys think. I think they see like Dan Herd's is a monster multi-billion dollar ... Delta does twenty billion a year in insurance. Then they see these corporate chains. I think when you start standing and everybody around you is becomes just a monster and you're just this little solo practitioner in Salina Kansas you start to think that they're going to have all the power with your profession. I think as everybody gets bigger they feel smaller.
Matthew: I agree.
Howard: At the end of the day I keep building their self-esteem back because I don't see anybody keeping people happy in a dental office. It's so rare when Mrs Jones come in you can spend two hours with her and she's still upset. It's like just because you're a billion dollar Heartland, Pacific you're big mega deal it's not like you're giving them an In and Out Burger. It's not like you're given them a Ferris Wheel ride at Disney. You're in their mouth you're giving them a shot you're trying not to hurt them.
It's so complicated. I see most dentist go years and years and years and they're still the same size. Of everyone there keeping someone else is going out the back door by someone coming in the front row I don't see anybody winning this game. I think the whole dental industry is only when a person walks up to a dentist and gives them a dollar. That's where the whole industry starts. Everyone else is just peripheral side noise.
When that lady gives you a dollar and you fix her tooth, the average dental office you come back every ten years the size of their business is the same. They still have one hygienist and the doctor's working two chairs. If they're getting twenty five new patients a month, twenty five are going to the guy across the street. It doesn't matter the guy across the street is corporate, individual it's hard to keep a customer happy when you're pulling teeth out of their head. Giving them root canals and smashing pink rubber into the middle of their nerves.
Matthew: Yeah. You're exactly right I agree with you.
Howard: If someone thinks they are going to cookie cutter out a Wal-Mart or a McDonald's Doc in the box, two shot McDentals and all Americans are going to be happy. They seriously have lost their minds.
Matthew: Yeah well but there's we know this that there will be people that will go to that. It will be successful because there's enough people, there's enough teeth to go around that's just the reality of it is-
Howard: Here's what you hear. You hear a big corporate chain comes in. Then they do a ton of marketing. They get a ton of business. Just set your timer to one year all those corporate patients are just filing your office complaining mad wanting this. They anchor to that and say well that corporate dental office they're not very good I get a bunch of upset patients from them all the time. You also get upset patients from your best friend Charlie across the street. Your best friend Ann up the street. What I'm trying to say is that it's hard to get your customers happy when you're pulling teeth. Doing root canals on them and maxing out their credit card, booked out can't get them ... It's a very tough game.
Matthew: I agree. I like the underdog I always root for the little guys to win. Part of the reason why I wrote the book is because this can help hopefully that struggling dentist or the one who's just not sure in and help them maybe make a difference and change a couple of things that can help them. Where they get their equipment and supplies at the end of the day you and I know that's not what's going to make or break them. Whether they buy this hand pieces or that hand piece, if they can't do the job and they don't treat the customer right doesn't matter.
Howard: What did you do is Isolite? I love Isolite.
Matthew: Isolite's a great product. I've been working with Isolite the last for five years. I do all their video, all their print advertising, their direct mail their e-mail. I do a lot of work with Isolite. They're great company. That's like one of those products I can't believe every dentist doesn't have an Isolite. If I were a dentist I would buy it. I would tell every other dentist I knew their idiot if they don't buy it. It's that good. It's that different changes the way you see things. It makes it big dentistry better and it's proven studies have proven that and that actually makes the dentistry better it lasts longer.
Howard: I don't even know where to start. Number one having your assist stand there and retract and suction, she's not adding light. That Isolite replaces the assistant and floods the area with light which when you're 53 everything's harder to see. We all start wearing your or you're not old enough, you don't wear readers yet do you?
Matthew: No.
Howard: Well give yourself another five, ten years and you'll be wearing readers and it's not just the magnification that's so important it's the light. What I love about it is it retracts and suctions far better than your assistant and now your assistant can be entering notes and setting up the tray and doing other stuff. Then I get better suctioning and retraction then when my assistant but I get the area flooded with light. We should throw Isolite a bone. If I said you who is their most famous dentist product champion. I should do a podcast with him.
Matthew: Tom Hirsch is one of the founders he's obviously he's a dentist. He's in Malibu I think. Another big proponent of it is Dr Jeff Roady. Do you know Jeff?
Howard: You have both their e-mails?
Matthew: I have them. I'll send them to you.
Howard: Yeah send me Tom Hirsch. I have a biases. When I was little whenever I went on vacation, when dad took me and my five sisters on vacation I had two things. It was always a theme park like a Six Flags over everything and then he always want to see stuff made. We always stopped and watched Budweiser made, Chrysler made, Ford made. Dad just loved to see factories and when you pull up in a station wagon with six kids and say can we take a tour of your factory? It's pretty hard to say no when it's six kids five hundred miles from home want to see how Coors beer is made in Colorado.
I think dentist like meeting the person behind the company. I think they would like to hear from Tom Hirsch. They probably have an Isolite or they're thinking about buying it. Instead of the branding Isolite they'd like to know wow, there's a real dentist named Tom Hirsch. Yeah send Tom Hirsch an e-mail and then cc me at Howard@dentaltime.com and say, "Hey Howard wants to get the founder of Isolite on there and talk about how this whole company started.
Matthew: I'll do it. Two other things on sort of the Isolite which to me it leads to a broader conversation about other things in dentistry really. One is that assist that's doing the job of Isolite, is that her most favorite thing that she's doing or least favorite? You've actually taken a job away from somebody that they don't even like to do. They don't want to sit there and suctions air and water. The biggest problem I think with Isolite it's not a problem but the struggle that they have with with we getting more users is that it's workflow. It's changing mindset and workflow.
Everybody knows you put that in front of somebody and show them what it looks like one hundred out of one hundred say that looks better. It looks cleaner. It looks drier. It looks ... But how do I make it work because now I've changed the way I'm doing my business and I've been doing my business for twenty years the same way. Now I've got to figure out how to make it work financially from a ROY perspective but also to train these people how to use it. Where does it go in? When is it going to mouth? When does it come out? Who does what? Now what is the assist doing?
It's not rocket surgery figuring this out but it's scary in that it's new and different. I think that's a hesitation that's caused.
Howard: Yeah I get Tom Hirsch because he also does cone beam 3D scanning. He does CEREC, he does implant surgery. He does the pinhole gum rejuvenation. Get him on there. You said you also work with macpractice. I always thought macpractice would explode just because all the old guys like me we grew up on a PC from Dell. You go into the dental schools they're all on a Macintosh.
It's kind of like when you go to the ski resort, all the dads are on two skis and all the kids are on a snowboard. I see in dental school I don't think I've ever seen a Dell computer in a dental school. They're all on Mac. What's their challenge? Why is macpractice not owned all the Dell prices of software on all kids under 35?
Matthew: Well that's a good question and that's part of what I'm working on. They're a client of mine and I'm trying to help them penetrate the market and to get into ... Software they don't really work with a lot of software dental schools. It's that's not really what they're there to learn. That's part of the problem. They project spend more time with practice management software but it's again changing the mindset of the existing sort of thinking of it's got a new PC.
They're also fighting a six hundred pound gorilla in Dentrix and Eaglesoft. Those are big big companies that spend a lot of money. They realize that the software controls everything. It controls the practice. It's the brain. I describe it as software is the brain of the practice. You can not run a practice these days without great software.
If you're a Mac guy you realize that Macs just run smoother faster, easier. They're easier to set up. They don't break as much. The IT costs are lower. It's staggering Staggering how much the average dentist spends on IT costs when running on a PC as opposed to running on a mac. It's unbelievable.
Howard: Look at dental offices that have been shut down by viruses and all the-
Matthew: You don't have to deal with any of that stuff-
Howard: Do you know what Dentrix and Eaglesoft remind me of? Remember ten years ago 2000-2005 when I said cell phone you either had a Motorola or a Nokia. Is that pretty much true?
Matthew: Yes.
Howard: Then Steve Jobs said I'm going to go into the cell phone business. I remember every Wall Street experts saying, is that guy completely insane? He's got a little bitty stupid music iPod and Nokia and Motorola own this industry. Jobs is an idiot. His own company's fired him once and now where is Nokia and Motorola? Jobs knew they sucked and Dentrix and Eaglesoft are the Motorola. They couldn't be worse. They couldn't be more pathetic. If they got specially for him to come in say make suck more, they probably say god you've done everything. The dentist signed up for twelve insurance plans and he doesn't know his cost. He doesn't now his overhead. It doesn't do pay roll. It has zero point zero zero business functions.
This is and if that macpractice hooked that thing up to an accounting package and those young dentist got out of school and all their staff clocked in and clocked off and it did the payroll and it did the accounting reports and at the end of the day they said hey Dr Matthew Petchel, you did $2187 today.
You netted $318 since and we're going to move $100 over into your federal income tax deal and by the way you signed up for a plan today. They pay you $250 for an MOD composite but you've spent an hour in there. When your staff is clocked in and your rents divided over the time and all this stuff. It cost you $212 to run opportory and you just signed up for a fee schedule that pays you $210. You lose $2 on every filling so you either got to do it in forty five minutes or drop that plan. If Dentrix and Eaglesoft just did the minimum basics they might have a chance but they're the next Motorola Nokia. I can not wait. I'll go to the funeral. I'll go to the wake if they have a bar.
Matthew: I don't know if you were thinking about having Dentrix sponsor this podcast but I think they're out at this point. I think they're-
Howard: I don't I don't care I've flown down I on my own dime I flew to Murryville. I talked to the CEO Stan Burnman several times. I've flown to Minneapolis, St Paul all the way back to when Pete [Furshut 00:50:55] was there because my sister's [inaudible 00:50:58] nunnery is right next to Patterson and 3M in Minneapolis St Paul and Lake Elmo. I fly down there because I want a tax excuse business I have to do some business for four hours and one minute to go visit my sister tax free in the nunnery. I tell 'em and they just tell me, they go Howard you're an MBA you're all into this. We ask a thousand dentist what they want they say they want to change the font from Ariel to New York Times. You're the only guy that ever says this.
Matthew: Yeah.
Howard: That's what they tell me. They go we're not going to change our product to make one guy happy. Then Dentrix hired this lady who came out to my office and she does this big survey of Dentrix users asking them everything I told them like do you want this and they all said no.
Matthew: Yeah.
Howard: I'm a frustrated idiot with a walnut brain.
Matthew: That would be a good podcast for you to do is on software. Actually the CEO of macpractice would probably come on and talk about the future of software.
Howard: What's his name?
Matthew: His name is Mark Hollis.
Howard: Now is he in Nebraska?
Matthew: He's in Nebraska. The company is in Nebraska. They're a big company too. They're actually a software company. They have like one hundred thirty employees. Sixty of which are engineers and software developers there are legit software company not-
Howard: What city are they in?
Matthew: They're in Lincoln. Lincoln Nebraska.
Howard: Are they big red fans?
Matthew: Oh yes. Office is right near the stadium.
Howard: Or they all dental?
Matthew: No macpractice is in medical dental chiropractic and eye care but Dentistry is one of their biggest bigger verticals. They've spent a lot of time in dentistry. Did I hear a story that you maybe 20 years ago started or had a company that was a mac-dental software-
Howard: It was me and Mike Datola. I think it was between 1987 and 1990. We knew at 1990 and now it's 2015 we knew you could never run a business where that with Eaglesoft, Dentrix.
Matthew: You guys were way ahead of your time.
Howard: I know it and I am twenty five years later and I haven't even made a dent in the problem and I think my magnum opus, The number one thing I could contribute to dentistry would not be Dental Town. It would not be a podcast. It would not be my thirty day dental MBA. It would just be convincing these guys that dentist literally commit suicide and die from financial struggles. They're not given the tools you would have if you would have skipped dental school and bought a Subway franchise or a Dairy Queen, a Long John Silvers. The twenty six year old punk ass kid at a Long John Silver's has ten times the financial information data but the dentist who knows the Krebs cycle and algebra and trig is given no tools. Then the account calls and says oh you owe the IRS forty seven thousand dollars and he's like what?
Matthew: How did that happen?
Howard: Then you listen to these publicly traded dental companies talking to Wall Street it's like everything in their ... I should just play all their press conferences it's like every word you just mentioned you could not get on your own damn software you sell to the dentist. Why do you give Wall Street what and then tell me that the dentist don't need what you have to have.
What have we covered? We've talked about Isolite, we talked about the KaVo Kerr project. What other ones you, Coment? What would you do for Coment?
Matthew: Well I don't work with them currently. I worked with them in my old agency. They're good people good company. I work with a company called Propel. Propel is that orthodontic it's actually that micro osteo perforation. The little hole that moves gums. They have a few devices actually do for them I name their products. That's kind of what I do for them. I do some advertising and some video stuff but mainly-
Howard: Was that started by an orthodontist?
Matthew: Started by that's a good question. I know that the guy behind it there's some VC money behind it who is a doctor but I don't know if there's an orthodontist. It's probably an orthodontist in there some where.
Howard: I own Orthotown too. I would love to interview the head of Propel. Can you deliver me that guy?
Matthew: Yeah I sure can. They're a really fascinating company they were-
Howard: Are they out of Silicon Valley?
Matthew: No they're up in New York. They're, where are they? They're upstate New York, just out of New York City.
Howard: How's that technology working?
Matthew: Well they have a few devices one is the micro osteo perforation I guess is what it's called. It's drill holes in the gum then the teeth move faster you use it. It actually doesn't replace like Invisalign or Clear Correct or anything it use it in conjunction. It drills the holes you still use it and it just accelerates teeth movement. That product I named for them. The product companies called Propel the product is called the Accelerator but it's spelled like Excellent, like Excellerator, it's pretty cool.
Howard: E-X, how do you spell it?
Matthew: E-X-C-E-L-L-E-R-E-A-T-O-R did I get that right?
Howard: Excellerator.
Matthew: Excellerator right.
Howard: Propel's the company, Excellerator ... What's their website if a podcast fan wants to go check out more?
Matthew: Theirs is propelortho.com.
Howard: Propelortho.com.
Matthew: Propelortho.com and they're coming out with a new product, I don't think they've released yet. I can't say anything about it-
Howard: It's propelorthodontics.com?
Matthew: Yeah.
Howard: Okay. What's the new product?
Matthew: I can't tell you about the new product they haven't released yet. I just named it which is really cool. It's also kind of groundbreaking on what it does and how interesting the-
Howard: It's it the doctor ... Okay so all right. Well you could tell me and then I'll just have to kill you. Isn't that's how it works?
Matthew: I think you have the other way around.
Howard: What other guy what other companies? Now Coment that's a European company in the German company.
Matthew: German company they make a rotary instruments, [inaudible 00:57:11] they're good company. I don't do anything with them currently but they're a good company.
Howard: What other company you work with? We talked about Isolite, macpractice, KaVo Kerr.
Matthew: One of my newer clients is Solmetex which is S-O-L-M-E-T-E-X, Solmetex. They do the water separation technology, the Malcolm fillings. It gets silver out of your water lines.
Howard: Or the mercury.
Matthew: Mercury that's what I meant.
Howard: I've got to say something about this because I've gone down to talk to the water department all that and basically I'm independent guy. I think that if your business is making the mess then you should clean it up. When we draw out the silver mercury fillings, it's all really concentrated. It's really low cost to remove it and clean it up. When it goes down the drain and it goes down to the Phoenix water department and it's mixed with hundreds of millions of gallons of water it becomes exponentially expense to try to get the stuff out.
By the way this is way too much information and I'm going to gross you out. I hope you already had lunch. When you go down there you know what the real problem is? What doesn't dissolve? Like fecal matter, turd all that just dissolves. You know what doesn't dissolve and it's just tons of it clogged up on all the screens and everything?
Matthew: Tell me.
Howard: Corn.
Matthew: Corn.
Howard: Corn is just doesn't get digested and when three and a half million people in the metro are pooping. It goes down and these these deals, corn. You talk about literally tractors with, just unbelievable. It just doesn't digest.
Matthew: They're a cool company. Another cool company is Weaved. So you know about Weaved?
Howard: Absolutely, out of Utah.
Matthew: Good company great product.
Howard: Oh wait I'm sorry, what was Solmetex making?
Matthew: They get the mercury out of the water.
Howard: Is it a trap or a machine or a filter?
Matthew: They don't call it a filter but it's I would call a filter. It's a filter device that you attach in line with your water line. It takes the water out, it takes the mercury out. Their big thing is their recycling program. It's not just like this filter that you have to deal with-
Howard: Let's look at their website. According to the EPA dental practice discharge three point seven tons of mercury to publicly owned treatment works the facilities each year. Dental practices are the number one contributor. Yeah they should pass federal laws that make us take it out. We're putting it in we should take it out.
Matthew: They make it easy because you worry about trapping it but then when your container fills up with mercury you don't want to take it home and bury your backyard or put in a closet. You ship it back to them and they recycle it responsibly. It's a good set up.
Howard: If you have the CEO e-mail me, I want to see what I have. If mines up to date. I would love to know of minds up to date. If it's not we can do an article or a story in Dental Town magazine. As far as I know I put mine in the last time I think I put mine in was I put it once in '87. I get it again and April 1, 1994. Dude, I haven't thought about it since. It's 2015, I don't know what-
Matthew: Maybe we ought to go down. It's going to be like going to the water treatment plant. We're going to see a bunch of corn in your-
Howard: We could do a story on it because this is a huge concern. A lot of countries are banning mercury fillings. The last straw for me where I think where mercury's bad? Even if you don't put in mercury, you're still drilling it out even if you have a Solmetex trap and you're cleaning it out you know where the largest source of mercury contamination from dentistry is coming?
Matthew: Tell me.
Howard: Cremating dead humans and their silver filling the mercury is going to mercury vapor because member if Mercury is in a silver filling and its bond is silver zinc copper tin it's an insolvable salt. When you cremate him it's mercury vapor highly reactive. I think what they need to do immediately is they need to pass laws that a dentist or a hygienist, someone has to go into every human before they're cremated and look in their mouth and if they got silver fillings they got extract the tooth from dead grandpa and put them in a can.
Matthew: You got it.
Howard: That's a huge deal. Hey we're out of time. What was the last company you were going talk about? What was the last one?
Matthew: Weave.
Howard: Weave, tell us about Weave. You're in overtime.
Matthew: Weave's a cool company. They help communicate with the patient. They have a communication tool allows the doctor to check in on the practice from a mobile app that they have. I think it's cool in the way that they do scheduling with patients and communicate with patients. It's a kind of change and I think they also do some of the stuff you were talking about about the collection and how much money does this person owe me. How much money did I make today. What is this.
If you had Weave and called your practice my name would show up. It integrates into your practice management system. I call you and your front desk answers the phone says, "Hey Matthew, how are you today you are calling to schedule that cleaning?" I'm like yeah. How did you know that? Well because we've got the best technology here. It's actually to me it's a brand differentiator. It's cool technology. It does a lot more than that but that's kind of the basic thing. They're a new companies it's doing I think they're cool company they're-
Howard: Are they out of Provo?
Matthew: They're out of know they're out of Salt Lake. Just south of Salt Lake.
Howard: Provo's south of Salt Lake. That's where Dentrix started in Provo. That's where Gordon Christian is. Was Weave a bunch of ex-Dentrix people?
Matthew: No. Weave is a pretty young company. Their software people and I think they came actually don't know what industry they came out. It's a cool company. I think they're in between Provo and Salt Lake.
Howard: Well hey buddy I think you're so fun to talk to. You're just a neat guy. Thanks for all the information on Brand Target. What if someone wants to contact you? How can a [inaudible 01:03:46] contact you?
Matthew: Yeah on my website there's a contact button. I think it's just info @brandtarget. My email is Matthew with two T's. Matthew@brandtarget and they can contact me that way. Also my book is available as we mentioned on Amazon. Also I just started doing a podcast called the Dental Insiders. I want to invite you to be a guest at some point. It's more industry focused but there's some appeal to dentist too it's a kind of an interesting. That's the one I'm doing with Michael Dunn who I think you may know too.
Howard: I love Michael Dunn. I love Michael Dunn, I love and hate him. I hate him in the fact that he's always the best dancer on the floor. When he's on the floor, I already feel like I suck but when you're dancing and Michael Dunn is dancing next to you just go sit down. He looks like John Travolta on Tequila.
Hey if you want that podcast to explode, everyone who's I got like a dozen people put their podcast now on Dental Town-
Matthew: Right.
Howard: I think that turns out to not be all their views but it's marketing because I think your natural behavior is they've already got iTunes player. It's their marketing. Everybody's that's put their podcast on Dental Town on their app said their iTunes downloads exploded.
Matthew: Cool.
Howard: Put it on that.
Matthew: I'll put it up there.
Howard: I want Dunn on here. Tell him I want to podcast him. He's a smart guy.
Matthew: I'll do it. I totally agree. I'll get him in.
Howard: Your book is Branding in Practice on Amazon by Matthew Petchel, P-E-T-C-H-E-L. What's the name of your podcast on iTunes?
Matthew: It is called the Dental Insiders. It's on iTunes.
Howard: It will be an honor to be on your show. Thanks buddy for an hour and five minutes. You took me into five minutes of into overtime.
Matthew: An hour and seven, all right.
Howard: All right buddy.
Matthew: Thanks Howard.
Howard: All right, bye-bye.