Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran
Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran
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1225 Ryan Moynihan MBA, CEO at Gaidge, Impact360 : Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

1225 Ryan Moynihan MBA, CEO at Gaidge, Impact360 : Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

8/1/2019 11:46:37 AM   |   Comments: 0   |   Views: 112

Ryan Moynihan has a diversified background in finance, analytics, strategy, sales, marketing, business development, product management and operations with over 19 years’ experience across many Fortune 100 companies in the areas of health care, consulting, and technology.

VIDEO - DUwHF #1225 - Ryan Moynihan

AUDIO - DUwHF #1225 - Ryan Moynihan

He worked at Disney, Intel, Ernst & Young and Miller Brewing Company before earning his MBA from Georgetown. He has spent the past 13 years of his career in the Dental/Orthodontic industry with 3M and Ormco (Danaher), most recently as the VP of Global Marketing (2 years) and VP of NA Sales (2 1/2 years) for Ormco. He joined Gaidge in August 2017 as CEO.

Howard: it's just a huge honor for me today to be podcast interview and Ryan Moynihan: CEO at Gaidge at impact 360 he has a diversified background in finance analytic strategy sales marketing business development product management operations with over 19 years experience across many Fortune 100 companies in the areas of healthcare consulting in technology he worked at Disney Intel earnest and young Miller Brewing Company before earning his MBA from Georgetown he has spent the past 13 years of his career in the dental orthodontic industry with 3m and Armco Danaher most recently is the vice president global marketing and vice president of cells form Co he joined Gaidge in August 2017 as CEO he's lived in 10 different cities throughout his professional career and recently completed a cross-country move to Atlanta Georgia from Sacramento California in early 2018 with his wife Maria I have 10 years and two boys Joseph's nine and Macklin six ran enjoyed spending time with the family and being outdoors and pretty much anything sports related he's got a University of New Mexico as BBA and 97 Georgetown MBA in 2005 it's just an honor to have you come on the show how are you doing I'm doing great thanks for having me appreciate it so I want to go back to your history before we start talking you spent 13 years of your career with 3m and arm Co which is owned by Danaher and arm Co and then ahur is now spinning off their dental division I love their stock trading deal they're gonna call it n VST which is Q because it sounds like invest but what would it what is your MBA thoughts on why do you think Danaher is spinning off their dental segment what is that all about and we saw it early in my career when what everybody calls Sirona used to be a part of a big conglomerate and they decided what do you remember the name of that conglomerate that Sirona started out with dense place yeah but anyway they spun enough but you know they were just reweighed Aliyah but why do you think Danaher spitting off Armco cave o noble Biocare well why do what do you think they're doing that 

Ryan Moynihan: yeah I mean I think it's  rebalancing the portfolio as well for Danaher when you look at just the return on investment you know what dental seems to bring to the table versus the other industries that make up the portfolio of Danaher you know I think dental a lot of times when it comes to capital reinvestment you know isn't necessarily getting what the other industries are just because of its return on investment so I think when with them being a standalone business I mean all the businesses generated a ton of cash but when they're able to be a standalone business it's going to help them kind of use that cash if they do produce and make sure that it gets fully returned to the dental business so they can you know try to get that you know growth engine going back again so I think that's one of the biggest reasons is just as you look at the whole portfolio they mean they they span off forward it as well two or three years ago and now it's time to kind of clean the portfolio up and they're spinning off the dental business and I think down being a standalone I think it'll have a really good opportunity to gain a lot of that reinvestment of their capital for them to be able to invest in their strategic projects that they believe will will drive their growth so right now I just say right now they compete for resources with the rest of the Danaher portfolio 

Howard: so yeah I mean I asked you to be on the show you didn't ask me and this isn't a commercial I'm so impressed with everything you're doing but with your background with such large companies Disney Intel earnest and young I'm surprised you didn't take all this knowledge and go join smiles direct Club in Tennessee or Invisalign was that a thought not small the right Club 

Ryan Moynihan: so no I believe in the profession obviously they've carved out a nice niche I mean there's a there's a lot of opportunity for Worth atonic treatment in the US if you look at you know I mean you being an orthodontist if you look at people smiles you know there's a lot of folks that need their teeth corrected invisaligns always been an opportunity meet it but I think you know for me I've always been part of big company and for me to be part of a small company now where I can be in control as a CEO make decision also helped me grow than that business I mean it's been a really really exciting point in my professional career making that switch it had it's definitely not for the faint of heart a lot of times but it's been it's been great for me having the background that I've had in the fortune 100 corporations to be able to come and run a small business now and kind of see where we can take that business so it's been a lot of fun these last two years well let's continue because you like saying this will be posted on ortho town and the orthodontist say they love this but they're really um stressed right now 

Howard: I mean I mean if you're an old orthodontist if you're an old dentist like me and you've been to an ortho for 32 years seeing Invisalign and seeing I mean we're out here in Phoenix Arizona smiles direct clubs opened up five stores you got all all that what would it what would you tell someone who's since a quarter of our listeners are still in dental school and they're saying you know next year I'm gonna apply to ortho school and then the or the older orthodontists are like you know it's not like it used to be well what do you think about the profession of ortho with all this new competition is it going to be a mass Cambrian explosion of extinct a mass extinction level event or spawn a new explosion of life how do you see it 

Ryan Moynihan: well I mean I think if you look at if I break down the market I look at the US populations about 315 million Americans of which depending on who you talk to people believe there's about anywhere from let's call it a hundred million that actually means some type of orthodontic treatment even if you don't believe that number let's just say it's 50 million it's a big pool to play in and right now I think currently there's about two to four million people that are in active treatment so if you look at the market opportunity we penny about what number you believe if you believe 100 million  there's still a ton of opportunity there to go get excuse me patients into the orthodontic chair so obviously small direct Club has come in I think they've done over 800,000 cases in their early infancy here you know so they're definite and they're spending I think 250 million dollars marketing to the consumer and obviously I mean the consumer a lot of times is not necessarily fully educated on or Onix so when they hear price is $2,000 less and they hear that you can do it yourself you know a lot of times in this instant gratification world that we live in that's pretty attractive sometimes especially when they can save some money but what's interesting though is that you know I think the orthodontist I think it's going to be an opportunity to expand the pie for the orthodontist through this whole process because you know depending upon I mean your as you being an orthodontist understand that you know it takes a whole lot more than doing it yourself to fix teeth and so we do believe in this profession so I think there's going to be an opportunity on the back end of this that the orthodontic group is going to be able to get a lot of these patients that you know may not be fully happy with their their treatment and smile the rep Club to come back into the orthodontic office and be able to do what they do best which is you know basically smile 

Howard: so do you think um if you but back to the question if you are a junior in dental school and next year after graduation thinking about it being an orthodontist you still thinking that's a good move I

Ryan Moynihan:  I do I mean I still think the fundamentals are there you know it's not gonna be the same profession I mean we got to think about the way the profession has been over the past few years I mean you hang your shingle and build it they will come I mean orthodontists are getting referrals from the general dentists around they're not now general dentists or doing orthodontic treatment you've got to direct consumer you got the big corporates that are coming in with a lot of dollars that are being spent there you know so it's gonna be a tougher environment but if you look at the the PLS of average orthodontist I mean there's a there's a ton of money that they're taking home it might be less money that they're taking home but I still think with a strategic business plan there's an opportunity there to go capture the patient population that lives out there and in one of the areas that hopefully we get into later in this interview is around some of the market map technology and the demographic studies that we're doing from an orthodontic perspective to really understand where those patients potentially might be in the marketplace and so from a strategic marketing standpoint I think there's a really good opportunity for where the dentists to be able to you know capture you know where those patients are and bring them into their orthodontic office as they go forward with a little bit more sophistication in their marketing program

Howard:  okay well I got to play devil's advocate because I someone's got to be confused you're talking about two Bran's you remind me of the CEO of yamaha you we both have an MBA degree and they always taught core competency core comp is they only do one thing and you have two things you have gauge calm and impact 360 calm so I'm gonna call you mr. Yamaha because mr. Yamaha became number one in motorcycles and pianos and everybody in Japan told him he had to pick one and his passion was was with both and he became number one in in pianos and motorcycles so what do you want to start with gage calm or impact 360 calm 

Ryan Moynihan: well I'll talk about impact 360 because that's a company that's been around for many years so Marybeth Kirkpatrick is the founder she's been in the industry over 30 years and she's had a very successful consulting company and recently it's been renamed impact 360 I think in the mid early 2000s and so an impact 360 is a consulting arm Marybeth had the idea to create software bridges with the practice management software's and pull up the key metrics that an orthodontist needs to run their practice so that's where gage was developed about seven years ago and since then we've been able to grow the grow the business to serve over 1,000 orthodontists in the US pulling their metrics on an automated basis on it on a daily basis so they can actually understand where they are managing their practice immediately in their in their day to day operations so the consulting business feeds the gauge business and the two are kind of go hand-in-hand with each other so think of them as kind of divisions and complementary within within each other in that business nice 

Howard:Oh Mary Beth is she still running that yeah yep she's still very much involved on a day-to-day business so I I managed more of the financial piece on the consulting she does more the day-to-day operations on that and then I manage you know most of the gauge business as we look at it today oh man she might be an awesome podcast to follow after you I think so yeah if she's ready to go an hour to you just over come on seriously I think that'd be great if she wants to come on after you if she's free today is she I can check what she's she's got a great story to tell yeah I reckon Salaam so um so then talk about gage so now this is the New Deal this is gage intelligence for simpler smarter orthodontic practice management leverage business insights from 80 plus practice metrics 35 plus reporting dashboards plus industry benchmarking and regional comparison data so you can build and manage a better practice so how old is this and and where is this at now 

Ryan Moynihan: so that's about seven years old and so what we have is a comprehensive dashboard that every night runs basically through each practice management system and pulls the key metrics out of the practice management system and bubbles that up on a dashboard so an orthodontist instead of having to run orthodontist practice practices staff instead of having to root through you know hundreds of different lines of data or reports or Excel spreadsheets can have everything automated and delivered to them whether it be through the web version that we have or we also have a mobile version on the phone and so gives you the different key metrics that it takes to run a practice and it gives you that updated every single day so where you're able to basically understand the health of your business the other thing I think is really great about gauge is that you can benchmark yourself with other practices that are submitting into gauge and aggregate and so if you're in the southeast and you want to see what's other single doctor practices in the southeast are doing you're able to compare your practice to the aggregate in the southeast and understand kind of am i winning or losing based on you know how I compare it to other like practices and so that also gives you a chance to look at the US Dynamics what's going on in the US market what's going on in your region what's going on with your practice type it gives you some really good insights into kind of how your practice is performing versus the other practices in your area or nationally

Howard:  and what he is summarizing is since 2000 52 percent of the fortune 500 companies have been acquired merge or bankrupted by 2030 just 10 years now another 40 percent most likely disappear to put this in perspective I was born in 62 and at that time the average S&P; 500 company was about 62 and now I'm 57 and today the average S&P; 500 company is a teenager under 20 years old and this new exploit that this new death certificate is brought to you by this new economic business model where they have DNA like lift Google's l-square Airbnb Amazon Twilio Shopify Zappos Axios rocket mortgage lending tree Microsoft Oracle s ap Adobe Autodesk cells first workday ServiceNow and slack and what those all have in common is the next big thing is this digital transformation intersection of elastic cloud computing big data IOT Internet of Things and artificial intelligence and that's what you're really basing your gauge on absolutely

Ryan Moynihan:  absolutely and that's why I also believe that you know we look at practices and like I said we roll up we probably have over a thousand orthodontists reporting into the gauge system and so we can look in aggregate you know what is the market doing what is the industry doing and we've even been challenged a handful of times just by you know some of the other worth Adonis out there but we see with our orthodontist that our reporting in the gauge that they may tend to have more successful faster growing practices and that's just a function of I think watching their metrics having their metrics delivered to them on a daily basis and being able to understand those versus you know maybe just turning a blind eye to those and not necessarily paying as much attention to them on the daily basis so you know gage is been a really helpful and successful tool for the orthodontists that engage with it and look at it on a daily weekly basis to basically understand where their  practices are performing and not performing so it really gives you early indicators of where you can actually start to you know use some course corrections or double down on if you're seeing some really good growth in those areas 

Howard: so are you looking at this data with the story for a married kirkpatrick and all of her lifelong experience of this or are you actually using AI and taking a thousand offices data is very big data are you machine learning this data using AI to try to get these or

Ryan Moynihan:  i mean we have we have a software bridge so everybody that signs up for gauge signs up for the software bridge and so they're basically every night that data is running not only to the practice but also into the aggregate database so each practices can see their own information but they can also compare themselves to the aggregate database that they're creating as well that you know i think it's a pretty good indicator of you know some of the success that's going on in the market but that's how are you are you

Howard:  in the future do you see yourself bringing in an AI machine learning programmers to see what they can find in this big data or you just more aggregate mean the data aggregating it right now but 

Ryan Moynihan: absolutely i mean i think the future you know there's a lot of AI that we think we can do some learning based on that so i think that's definitely on the table we have a pretty robust pipeline of things that we want to bring to the product line and you know AI is definitely on the table it's just a matter of you know how do we figure out windy what what exactly will it do for us and how do we how do we program it in so you have a thousand customers right now with gauge a thousand or get on us and how many orthodontists you think are in the united states 

Howard: well i'm el ortho town magazine to ten thousand eight hundred each month so i'm pretty sure there's at least that many but unless i'm unless my circulation department lady is not paying attention i'm just kidding but um so to get one foul to get ten percent of a market is just profound 

Ryan Moynihan: i mean almost no one has ten percent of any market why do you think one thousand orthodontists with a dozen years of college became your customers that's first of all congratulations on that but what is the core value what are you doing for them faster what are you doing what's the value proposition there i mean the value proposition is the fact you don't have to go look for your financials your front financial information is delivered to you in a very easy to read - portable format so you know an orthodontist by trade you know in in north of school basically focuses on the clinical side of the business and you know the business side of the business isn't something that necessarily is  taught throughout maybe it's some small classes here there but you know when ortho gets out of worth of school running the whole business there's a lot to learn there and we want to just make that you know very  simple and so that's where the solution and the value is for gage is that it provides an opportunity for this dashboard to be served up to the orthodontist on a daily basis for them to really understand where their practices health-wise you know constantly versus having to really go looking and hunt for that information so that's where the real value is and then the ability to compare to I mean I think an underestimate that and I mentioned that before but comparing to other like practices is a really big deal because how am i doing versus what the markets doing I mean as we said now I mean a lot of the orthodontists you know there's a there's a level of fear based on all the surrounding activity that's going on in the marketplace but as I've mentioned you know as we look at gage users on average the aggregate I mean we're still seeing pretty good growth just we just finished up q2 and you know we're seeing two to four percent growth in production and collection you know new patients exams are kind of flat or you know their slots like growth have one and a half percent but starts are up three and a half percent so we're still seeing you know decent growth in the industry it's not negative money means it's not flat by any means we're still seeing you know that that low single-digit growth you know from our gauge user so you know how that compares to when you roll up maybe a jco study or if we weren't able to get everybody in aggregate across the u.s. you know I think we we always seem to tend to be a point or two higher than you know some of the other practices out there and it's a function of just people being able to be aware of their metrics and see their statistics you know on a daily basis in a very simple easy way I mean everybody's busy right you're running clinics you you're running a staff you're running a business and if you gotta go spend a bunch of time pulling a bunch of Excel sheets together you know once if that's not automated then I think you really you know you know the data would be old by the time you get it and then you won't do it as often because it takes a lot of time and it's cumbersome so that's where I think the real value is with age 

Howard: so do you know why I asked you to come on the show no well it was from episode 11 77 have you ever had met an orthodontist named Todd Vanetta zerk yeah Todd boven Iser yeah he's one of our great gage clients absolutely well he's the one who said it first on Dentistry uncensored and so why is  why do you think Todd he says on your website gage is a lifeline to my practice I have been spoiled with the easy-to-use graphic design I review it every day to retrieve the pulse of the practice but what I am wondering on when you're looking at financials he says that you know that that well on your own website says that a 12-month study knew gage users report an average of 8% increase in starts their first year that the gage practices average case went up at their first year at 12-month study new gage users collections increased 7% they have 38% more starred so what I'm wondering is when I'm looking at all these dashboard metrics how does that translate to more starts 

Ryan Moynihan: well I mean a lot of it is you understand is my phone ringing let's just start at the first part of the orthodontic practice I mean new patient new patient calls if that's up or down if it's down then you need to go back and investigate your marketing program how come I'm not how come my phone isn't ringing and then if your phone is ringing to a level then we also we have a whole analysis that we do and this is all part of the gauge system but it's around the leaky bucket and so the leaky bucket basically is how many people are calling my practice and then what's the fall-off when those patients actually come in for an exam and then when they come in for an exam how many of those end up starting in my practice and we'll see actually through even through the gauge data we'll see a pretty big fall off to the tune of 15 and 20% from new patients that call to actually show up for an exam and then even after that you'll probably see another 10 20% fall-off between patients that come in for an exam to actually start now obviously between there there's certain kids that aren't ready they go into observation there's certain patients just period you know our just not candidates they slip away there's patients and say no we get all that there's there's definitely metrics for that but you know I think Todd boven Ives has really been able to hear he has a very successful practice and if we look at the gauge data and we'll see you know tremendous growth year over year with what he's been able to do but it's something gauge is something that he looks at every single day and so he knows how many patient phone calls did I get yesterday and how did that compare to the day before and then from those patient phone calls how many exams and I schedule and from those exams how many starts do I get so it's really understanding you know those metrics whereas if you're not looking at that at all are you looking at maybe on a monthly basis you know maybe there's certain there's certain practicer tenacious that slip through the cracks and just don't come into your practice so he's very very vigilant as far as looking at you know his metrics on a daily basis and really understanding that waterfall that we call it the consumer conversion waterfall or the leaky bucket as far as how those patients come into his practice and make it all the way to a start and then obviously once they're in the start they have you know bogie and Baker have great clinical excellence which leads to more referrals and that whole process you know continues to repeat itself so and what did you name what did you name the leaky bucket 

Howard: I loved it the leaky bucket is what the consumer conversion waterfall the consumer converters waterfall and I think that is just I mean you just send out the business in a nutshell I mean the way I expand my general dentists but I mean what were what I believe I'm seeing the numbers I believe is that for every 100 people that land on a general dentists website only 3 convert to call 3 have to call for one to convert to schedule and then when they come in with a cavity you have to present three individual patients that they have a cavity for one to convert to do the dentistry so the whole dental industry which is 750,000 gross collections netting 180 to do that 180 in fillings three patients had to show up for three to show up nine had to call and for nine to call 300 had to land on your damn website hell just fix anything on that I mean take anything on that and you got any go from 750 to a million - so I love the leaky bucket consumer conversion waterfall do I have to pay you a royalty to start saying that in my seminar now go for it let's talk logistics first of all I know what my homies are thinking they're thinking well how does gage know who's calling my office are you connected to the incoming phone line or this through an orthodontic practice management software and if so which orthodontic practice software do you recommend if that doesn't cause you a lot of channel conflict I'm sure it's a thousand orthodontist how many are how many different orthodontic practice managers software systems are your thousand clients using 

Ryan Moynihan: we're across the major six major practice management software's we don't recommend any of them that's not that's why I won't I'm an expert in I'll leave that to the to the orthodontist to figure that out but we have a daily upload as I mentioned so we have a software bridge into our practice management partners they're there and they're in this with us with gage so so the minute we pick up the story when the phone rings and that's when the the orthodontist would enter that patients name into their practice management software so we count those new patient calls and so we are right now integrated with or third track ortho to viewpoint ortho to edge cloud nine tops dolphin or tops is actually we're integrating with them probably in the next month and then we've also got dolphin so we've got the major six there well you mind I'm telling the six shows there's a lot of kids out there just kind of what Nate named - six yeah so we have ortho track and we have ortho - viewpoint ortho - edge we've got cloud nine we've got dolphin management and then we are in the final stage of onboarding tops okay so you said 

Howard: ortho track is that a one word or toe track tra k TR AC TR AC and then you said ortho - yeah ortho - is the same company they have two different software's though Epworth so to edge and ortho to beYOU points edge and view point were you calling those two different ones or toe - yeah yeah it's the same company but it's two different softwares okay so ortho - has edge of you point then there was ortho track that's three then cloud nine tops I'm missing one we're often Oh dolphin good dog oh and is dolphin the same that's the same company as the original imager isn't it an imager yeah remember back in the day he had the dolphin image where you would would take your staff but it would end the chancing all at once dolphin imaging is yeah dolphin image is dolphin imaging and the same company is the dolphin a software management software so it all rolls itself up yet okay so then you're not connected to the phone line you're 

Ryan Moynihan: we're connected to the practice management system that's where our software bridge is we're those are our partners putting together under gauge and that's the other nice thing about what gauge can do and we compare we're kind of software agnostic to where we you know we roll up this same data engage and then we can compare it across software's so even for group practices sometimes group practices have multiple software programs in their groups and so we can connect to all the different software's and roll all that information up and so therefore across multiple locations they can all see their their gauge data at the same at the same rate versus having to look through three different lenses of three different software's

Howard:  okay so there's a huge discussion on dental town and it's really you know you're no one's changing their mind whether rural is a good idea or urban is a good idea and so you have this gauge analytics software that's mapping technology and the importance of using metrics to run your dental work tow business so let's say she just graduated from the school um should she go to the big city or should she go rural okay 

Ryan Moynihan: well it depends obviously right and so what we have just launched with gage is we're bringing in a partner epiphany analytics and we're launching a mapping software and so what we've been able to do through our partnership here is we have teamed up with an individual Karl Schroeder who has 25 years of mapping experience he's been doing this he's got investment grade level data and that's feeding his  mapping software he's put millions of dollars into his software to create it and what's really differentiates this mapping solution to I think other solutions that are out there is that he has got a technology called the Flex quad and the Flex quad is imagine he's overlaid the United States with 3.4 million square mile Plex quads think of it as a grid and we can load data into those Flex quads down to the square mile so if you're talking about population if you're talking about spend if you're talking about a age you're talking about income you're talking about number of students in schools we if we have the data we can map it and so when you go back to your question what we've been able to do is put together those flex quads across the entire US where a graduate coming out of school can take a look at the maps and understand ok where are all the competitive orthodontic offices we can map that we can map all the dental offices we can map all the pediatric dentist offices so then we can look at that and then we can overlay that with ok and let's look at a market growth okay where's the market growing as far as number of new households being built and we say total number of households and we can also see a percent growth year over year then we can also see information such as population growth so where are the people at where are the people with certain high levels of income income thresholds where the people with kids who have or where the parents who have kids in the house that are 8 to 18 years old we can slice and dice and segment all of that data down to the square mile for our 3.4 million square miles of quads across the entire United States we heat map it turn it green put a number in it so it's very visually easy to see and understand where would the right opportunity be and so we've created a handful of maps that are accustomed to the orthodontic dental industry that we believe are good indicators of where the people are and this is what's where I go back to me being very bullish on the market because we've been able to grab this information and even behind so basically we know every single there's a there's a code that the credit agencies have on all of us call the persona code okay so we all know we have credit scores but behind our credit scores we are delineated in one of 71 different persona codes and every household is mapped to a persona code and these persona codes are based on age income and spending habits and so they're categorized and so what we've been able to do with this mapping concept is now we can also map personas so we know we know we were building a database we know what personas are saying yes to orthodontic treatment and what personas are saying no to orthodontic treatment and we know every single household what it's mapped to from a persona standpoint so this is information that Amazon and Facebook are using to target us and so when we when it comes back to you know orthodontists out there and you know my market understanding of saying hey there's potentially 50 to 100 million and orthos out there that or sorry not worth us but there 52 million to 50 to 100 million patient potential patients out there with only 2 to 4 million patients and active treatment you know I believe there's a great opportunity here for the ortho street to use some of the sophisticated marketing to really target the personas that are coming in for orthodontic treatment and like I said we have each one of those households is mapped and we can go find look-alikes of who's coming into your practice figure out where they are and then you can market to them with Direct Mail if that's your route you want to go or you can also do some geo targeting geofencing marketing on the digital side so there's a handful of ways that you can reach a potential consumer with the right message so so the segmentation of the consumer now I think we're on the cusp of something that could be really really interesting for the orthodontic market 

Howard: I mean this is really crazy stuff I mean this is this is high-tech yeah absolutely isn't like I said 

Ryan Moynihan: this is something that the investment community has been using it's something that's a lot of a sophisticated big companies use and you know my thought is  that or I've got a gauge here is to bring this to the orthodontic dental community where you know there's there's the opportunity to really go out and get really r focused and targeted on this population based out there that I think can really help drive you know substantial growth and we go back to our friend Todd bogan Iser you know he and a handful of the doctors have been using it so far and I know you know with his marketing specialist there they've they've done some really cool targeted Facebook campaigns and digital marketing campaigns to go after these personas that are coming into their practice and finding the look-alikes I'm in the surrounding area so it's a really cool sophisticated marketing that you know we're really excited to bring to the industry 

Howard: so is this the Epiphany is this the Epiphany out of Richmond Virginia marketing advertising software or is it the Epiphany out of Iowa that's attic that's out of California Turlock Turlock it's out of Turlock it's out of Turlock California California is that southern or burlock California it's it's out the Sacramento and is this and did you say the founder that was Karl Schroeder Karl Schroeder yeah he's the founder of a company yeah and we have an exclusive partnership with him in the ortho dental pedo space right now gosh I hope I hope you go into General Dentistry soon we're looking for we're ready for it so who is the main orthodontic customer are they still when we talk about the United States population of 327 million people and there's four million cases right now being done of those four million is that like 80% teenage kids in high school or do you have the breakdown so the Wayner adult versus kids yeah 

Ryan Moynihan: yeah so engage we actually tracked that so we no adult exams vs. child exams adult starts vs. child exams starts so it's about a 70/30 child adult split right now it's where that's at but with this information that we get for the mapping technology it's based on the responsible party so obviously kids don't have a persona code yet because they're not a credit worthiness at this point so we actually get the responsible party so you know we know the parent as a parents is the ultimate decision-maker when it comes to the teenage group so you know that's twho's getting targeted with these messages obviously there's a there's a component there to target the teenagers to the digital piece but you know we also know kind of what what parental households are coming in to the orthodontic office

Howard:  so is it looked like and the 70% child start should be drifting downwards when you look at you know 1950 America where the average family had over five kids and now it's 2020 and they have you know less than two kids is is child starts drifting down because people are having to bus kids 

Ryan Moynihan: well I mean there is less kids I mean based on the census back if you give an act like 2007 I believe so they know that's what's starting to feed orthodontics right now there are less children available but then you're also getting an influx of more adults especially with the line or therapy that are wanting to do that so that's taking on some of the population even with some of the demographic data that we've looked at with our persona studies were there the categories are basically A through S and then there's 71 different specific codes within that but the C category is basically your 51 is 65 year old empty nesters make good money and they're they're actually one of the top segments in the orthodontic space and they're going back in and they're they're wanting a line of treatment so yeah we're definitely seeing a trend I don't know if it's a full transition but we're definitely seeing it used to be something you know when I started thinking about gauge was 8020 child to adult now that's kind of moved to 70/30 in sum once you get 65 35 other months it oscillates back up to 75 25 but I would say on average if you look at a running average it's about 70 30 minutes

Howard:  man I you could write the most awesome article for ortho town with all this stuff dentist love numbers they love statistics will you do that I'd love to yeah we absolutely look yeah and also my job as a leader is you don't have to lead a dentist to go learn how to do implants and bone graft I mean there chefs they were born to be in the kitchen it's a leader to take their nose out of the kitchen and go stick it in their statement of cash flow and their balance sheet and their P&L; and they're just they if they were if they were truly ensuring that they would have been accountants they wouldn't have been an orthodontist Ness but if you'd ever write an article and do an online CE course on have why you need to know your numbers I want to go back to the clear liners and see how biased my walnut brain is is clear liners mostly women looking more beautiful is it 80/20 or actually already actually have a bunch of old fat bald men getting clear liners too I don't 

Ryan Moynihan: I don't know the gender of that so I don't we don't we don't have that level of information where we can segment out if it's male female or young old I I really don't know we just know adult child and we know we don't 

Howard: think you should add that because it's it's very different when you're doing social media marketing it's very it's very different finding a woman than finding a man that's why sports that's why the NFL which starts their first game in 39 days not that I'm counting or anything but in 39 days on Thursday when the Bronwen there then they play but anyway um the reason sports are so valuable is because of the elusive young male wanting to buy their first car become our truck because they're very brand loyal so if you start out with a Ford 150 at 18 to 20 you're probably gonna buy a Ford 150 when you're 65 years old and it's so hard to find males that that's what's fueling the NFL the NBA NASCAR anything where you kick a ball whereas women you can find them in a hundred different place so that would be very interesting marketing analytics to see the boy/girl thing on this would you agree or or not really absolutely yeah I mean I'm sure you know Invisalign has all those in from that all that information right because they I mean they wouldn't know that that in a heartbeat cuz they track all that and obviously what the cases they get it for us we get patient counts and we get them by you know age categories we don't get it by gender so at this point we don't have that so you mentioned the Invisalign word word what do what do you orthodontists think Invisalign has done to their market I mean I is it a love-hate as a confusion as a stress I mean they obviously love the technology because I remember one of the big arguments on orthodontist like well if you hate Invisalign so much why are you using them they have because it's good stuff so so wow would you describe the relationship with orthodontists and Invisalign today 

Ryan Moynihan: I mean it's mixed it's mixed I think from what I hear but I mean I think a lion does a lot of really good things are very business-savvy you know they know how to drive patients to a practice and and obviously the product is really really good because north adonis have been using that i mean that's one thing that we track engage as well as sheriff chair and we've seen you know one other line has come from being 7% of total starts to now they're up to about 20% of total starts in the in the united states I mean and you can see that play out with their growth over time not I see this last quarter you know they missed a number so they got whacked with stock but you know Invisalign it's been a very solid business and it's driven a lot of growth for a lot of practices so I you know I get that there's a mixed relationship there you know I don't want to comment too much on that just because everyone has a different opinion that's for each person to decide on their own you know but I mean they're you know they've always been an industry leader when it's when it comes to you know a product out there and driving consumer behavior so or to consumer demand I mean so it's  you know they've done they've done a nice job driving the industry so and a lot of orthodontics I've profited from them yeah I also understand the flip side of that as well and

Howard:  you know why I ask you that's why I named the show dentistry uncensored I'm not gonna talk about anything that everyone agrees on is they're not gonna listen I want to talk about everything that just makes their blood boil so I'm gonna show you another technical till you know when we talk about the digital information inside its elastic cloud computing it's a big data it's a Internet of Things IOT artificial intelligence these donuts when they're loading up to you is that or is that are the servers your capital expenditure your servers or are you utilizing cloud services are you hosting all those gauges a cloud-based application so yeah we're we're cloud based from our perspective but do you host your own cloud or is it on Amazon Web Services or Microsoft Azure it's on Amazon Web Services yeah well talk about the decision because I'm quite frankly you know an American you know they grew up having their own horse their own ranch we didn't go big into public transportations there's just a lot of dentists ooh just it just blows her mind to think that all their data is gonna be sitting with Amazon what would you say to that dentist who's really resisting the benefits of elastic cloud computing 

Ryan Moynihan: hmm yeah that's an interesting question I I mean I think it's kind of the wedding it's the way the future is and but I also understand too that you know even though even you go back to our our phones and Alexa at home I mean I feel like everybody's listening to us even this mapping stuff that I just talked to you about I mean it seems very very invasive as far as just you know from a privacy standpoint and people knowing like what my persona code is so you know it's it's something that you know from our business I mean I think it's probably cost-efficient and you know it is safe and secure you know we believe that we have a techno we have a whole impact 360 as a technology arm and so one of our other partners Mike gregor you know make sure that and he really handles that he's more the expert on that to make sure that you know we have some of the best secure information because we are pulling a lot of data and we and we've been you know we've been tracked to by you know some of these dark web companies just to do some analyses on you know how safe the data is from our perspective and you know we come up with very very good reviews as far as not having something that you know you can go grab but as far as you know putting that data whether it's an Amazon server or someone else I mean you know I guess I don't know if I have just a real opinion on another than that's kind of the way that the world is going at this point and you know for us I mean I know from our technical perspective and like we're really really safe with the data that you know we put onto that so we have a combination of a data farm plus some of the overload comes and is on what sir so we kind of have a hybrid approach to how we do it 

Howard: now is the hybrid approach your servers or versus Amazon or is your hybrid approach different vendors it's

Ryan Moynihan:  no it's it's our it's our server so we do have like I said Mike Gregor and his team I mean they built the data farm and so we've kind of hybridized you know where that where that data resides so we've got in two different hotspots the one part of its home ground and part of its outsourced

Howard:  and if someone was thinking about doing cloud computing there's only four I mean there's there's Amazon Web Services there's Microsoft desert there's a Google cloud and there's IBM Watson you made a decision you own the Amazon if someone's out there thinking about it why did you go with Amazon versus the other

Ryan Moynihan:  honestly that's the decision that was made before my time over here so it's not it's something I didn't make that decision it was made by my Mike and Mary Beth a long time ago so I don't really know the basis that went into that decision other than I leave the technical side to Mike and understanding that everything's safe over there so I  don't know why they made a decision 

Howard: well that's another reason to go cloud computing I mean I mean I hear about a dentist once a month getting ransom software and then it happened to my son and my own programmers I got five programmers they said dude throw your laptop away and you got to start from scratch I mean there's just so the only thing that could make me not want to put everything on the cloud would just be the cost it does it cost more and then you're then you got a burst that as a capex expense should I spend my capital buying new servers and upgrading and software or do I make it an Operations expense where I just have a monthly fee like I do with rent mortgage the electric bill the light bill the Verizon bill so so I'll ask you that do you think cloud would you rather put your money in a cap X expense and buying more servers or an Operations expense and just pay Amazon a monthly fee

Ryan Moynihan:  I'd do it more of the month of T right right and then the other thing about cloud computing 

Howard: you got to remember it's elastic cloud computing what that means is if you use if you only use an hour a day I mean you're charge an hour a day let's say for 10 days that that's your fee but if for some reason today we need all 10 hours it elastically expands and we'll crunch your 10 hours and you can't do that on your own servers so I'm going to ask you another question because you you are looking at this orthodontic industry from 38,000 feet for over a decade from warm Co all that what do you think the more successful orthodontists are doing more of that are happier and more fulfilled and financially satisfied as opposed to the orthodontist that aren't doing so well and aren't so happy and are frustrated what do you think the successful ones are doing more than the non successful ones 

Ryan Moynihan: I mean I think a lot of its about the digital workflow and your practice you know automating as many things as you can possibly automate and you know there's a lot of different opportunities out there whether it be the products that you use or the systems that use in your practice so I mean I think those that are constantly willing to learn art I mean there's a lot of progressive study groups out there and ideas sharing and so I think you know those that you know continue to you know feel almost like they're you know under attack every day but are actually winning the game probably more than the other ones because they're out there constantly out there trying to better themselves continue to learn continue to progress and and obviously the digital piece is a big part of that

Howard:  and what do you think of the orthodontic company Jill Allen & Associates practice results a practical approach to practice management Jill Alan 

Ryan Moynihan: I mean we've started to partner with her now yes so just to let you know like she consults as well as our impact 360 business so you know we do buy for the same customer some places so they are considered a competitor but the other cool thing about the industry is that we work along with a lot of our consulting competitors in a very collegial way to work together and you know kind of stay in our own zone so we work with Jill for about the last year I mean she's she's great and I know she really taps into a lot of the the new graduates coming right out of school so she you know she's been a really good resource for those that I've had limited experience whether vote for you know who she's worked with I know you know people speak very highly of her you know and they do the same stuff that impact 360 does as well so we kind of stay on the same space there and

Howard:  kids what he just said is he thinks in hope growth in abundance he doesn't live in fear and scarcity I mean it's just so bizarre that you'll talk to some dentist that lives in a different country on Facebook or dental town but you've never had lunch with the same dentist in your own medical dental building and you know who orthodontist and you know who everybody competes against is you know you when someone's gonna buy ortho for 6500 the competition is a vacation to Disneyland Disney World accrues something like that and if you just think and hope growth and abundance you'll just grow the pie and I think that's just very admirable that you have an advertisement on your website for jill allen who has a product that competes with your own company and you have an ad on our own website i just think that's so cool because every because attitude is everything and people who think and hope growth and abundance they do so much more well than the ones that are always walking around in fear do you see any other variables of success are there any clinical variables well I mean 

Ryan Moynihan: I think the markets gonna you know clinically you know a liners have obviously been a hot topic cuz its consumer driven right now and clinically they're getting better you know there there's a couple other new technologies out there that I think remain to be seen kind of from a clinical perspective what that's gonna be like and so I think you know there's there's always going to be innovation you know working at norm Co and 3 mm those company built on innovation and the pipeline of what they have behind the curtain they're they're constantly working on you know ways for faster treatment less invasive treatment things like that so I mean I think you know the markets going to continue to you know develop you know new innovations I don't know exactly what those are going to be I mean right now obviously a liners are kind of a hot topic and it's consumer driven because of the lack of invasiveness of it but I think you know as far as the future goes I mean there's a lot of stuff I think in these pipelines these companies that are they're gonna bring to the market and it's gonna you know hopefully speed is something that they can you know reduce orthodontic treatment down from something that could be 18 to 24 months down to less than 12 you know that's definitely gonna catch the eye of people but those are just kind of my thoughts on you know there's constantly going to be innovation in this marketplace and you know there will be something that comes out and probably competes with you know aligners probably at some point I just don't know what that's going to look like huh and 

Howard: I can't believe we're almost we're almost done with our time but I'm what what were you we just had a bunch of kids come out of school what do you think about their decision to graduate $284,000 and dad and going to dentistry you know I noticed when KKR bought a lion's share of a Heartland dental that one of the things that they were saying is that dentistry is just not going away I mean there's and as people get richer and richer and richer they're gonna bid up the price of healthcare the Mayo Clinic brothers for the first one to realize that it defied logic where people would sell their lifelong farm to treat eighty five-year-old grandma's cancer to keep her alive one more year so everybody's bidding up the price of healthcare but what advice would you give to the young orthodontist who are gonna graduate in a year or two or coming out of school what would you say to them yeah I mean 

Ryan Moynihan: I think there's always like you said there's always gonna be a patient population as long as society continues to exist there's gonna be the need for dental it's gonna be the need for its Adamic treatment i think they you know part of part of our message at gage is about you know how do you run a successful business and really understanding you know when you set up shop you do you have the right overhead do you have you have the right goals in place do you have the right marketing program to support your goals you can't shy away from it and yes there are pressures with direct consumer with pricing pressures you know you're not going to get the 6500 anymore you know that pricing from an orthodontic case might you know drop down into three or four thousand over time but as you mentioned you know the competition of what a lot of these orthos are competing with is their vacation or their the next new car you know the margins are going to be pinched a little bit but it's still a really healthy living when you consider you know the rest of of these other jobs that folks are doing these other professions that folks are in and I think - I mean being very strategic and understanding the business side combined with the clinical side you know there's still a lot of opportunity for you to run a very very successful practice and we see it every day even though there is a lot of pressure in the industry right now you know those we believe that are matching their metrics that are you know leveraging the consultants in the industry are actually really thriving and it's a small price to pay in order to get a huge amount of return if you can't you can't save your way to prosperity I think you have to invest I think you have to yeah the lead you've got to hire the right people you got to be a great leader someone that people will follow then also I think you know looking at your metrics and putting a strategic plan in place in order for you to go after to the market and understand that and that's what we're trying to support you whether it be impact 360 consulting whether it be gauge or even our new market map technology because we believe there's a ton of patience out there if I go back to my opening comment where 300 you said 327 million Americans I had 315 give or take right but if 100 million need treatment and only 2 to 4 in treatment that's a big that's a big pond efficient if we're doing it right we're doing it strategically and there's a way to grow that pie for the overall orthodontic business so you know the fact is is a lot of these orthos are in this thing now and they have to they have to change and they have to evolve in order to kind of stay on top and then there's gonna be a lot of orthos and dentist dentists coming out of school and they're gonna be dealt with a new market I mean change is inevitable in any industry that you're in you just have to adapt to that so you know that's my advice is that you picked a profession you're in the profession figure out how to win in the profession and move with the change well 

Howard: on Twitter you're at gage org I love I'm ants engage but you spell to GA idge I'm gay GA idge gate at gage ortho and I just retreated your last tweet four hours ago and thank you to the 25,000 dentists who follow me on ortho it really is an honor your last tweet that i retweeted to my home he says just because you are a smaller business doesn't mean you have to sit on the sidelines when it comes to big data read our blog to learn more what did you want to talk about that bloggers or is that from the marketing department um and I haven't seen it yet oh the blog gets on our website for big data yeah why big data is difficult for practices to manage 

Ryan Moynihan: well I mean it's it's more or less like you said the core competency of the average orthodontic is orthodontist its clinical in nature right you don't necessarily go to the MBA school and get the business degree and you're not necessarily used to looking at a lot of different metrics but you know there's a ton of money in these small businesses for ortho whether you're a million-dollar practice or a four million dollar practice and whatever range you're in you know by you managing your business you can create and carve out a very very healthy lifestyle so I mean I think the big data piece of that you know from an orthodontic perspective and from a single doctor practice perspective I mean it's really  critical for running a running us very effective business 

Howard: so I you know something has changed from when I got Haskell when I get out of school in 87 we were laughing at the freshmen because they were installing computers when we were walking out and we thought we're glad we got out we'll never have to learn computers or Fortran or any that noise and there is no such thing as social media and I know that I'm a social media is a big thing and I know that on your website you talking about it's a marketing equalizer for every orthodontic practice big and small one way to unlock insights in social media is by tracking online mentions of your business with online tools I mentioned calm you is this social media game-changer and I want to tell you why I'm specifically asking this a lot of older done an orthodontist here my age say I don't care about their daughter on Instagram or whatever the heck the mom's the one who's gonna make the appointment and pay the $6,500 and she's not on Instagram so so this social media it's a big change talk about social media and your online tools like mention 

Ryan Moynihan:  I mean social media is the way the world works you can like it or hate it but that's how people are our finding information and that's how they're absolutely you know coming to understand where your practices and what your practice offers you know people are talking about you you know all the time they're posting information you know and part of it I mean for me yeah you look at social media and it's like man you get that comparison trap and you look at that and you're just like man that that family is perfect or you know her teeth are great or look at me you know but it's it's everyone has their own stuff behind the scenes but social media is a way though that you can reach people very very quickly and there's no other way to do it and it's revolutionized the world it's revolutionized marketing and so you know the more that an orthodontic practice can be intertwined in that web of social media the more mentions they're going to get and you know back to that comment where you know the doctor is probably gonna go to mom and say hey you know I learned about you know dr. Smith or whatever you on my Instagram account and that's gonna get the mom interested in starting to look at you know should we be doing something as far as going in to see dr. Smith from a from a decision-making standpoint the mom's still gonna make the decision but I think that the child a lot of times even in from a social media standpoint it's probably going to do some of the research to get that mom towards that decision-making so social media is I mean it's it's a critical part especially in this direct consumer world that we live in from an orthodontic perspective a dental perspective and it's something that you know every orthodontists and dentists I think has to absolutely understand it's constantly changing and and and capture and align a program and spend dollars and make investments based on you know how you can optimize that for your practice 

Howard: um I want you to tell me your oh what did you call it the leaky bucket oh the leaky bucket oh my god I'm not gonna be able to steal this for you I did couldn't even memorize the leaky bucket consumer conversion waterfall I said that I believe in the general dentistry market that it's basically  a hundred people have to land on your website for three convert three have to call for one to come in and you got to tell three people they need a filling before they before one gets it done are you seeing something different than that in the orthodontic world what are you saying well how many people need to land on the website to call 

Ryan Moynihan: so from a gauge perspective we're starting to learn that story so we don't have hard metrics as far as how many landing on the website to call we do know when they call about twenty percent of them don't come in the targets ten so we think that's a leak right there to where you know how do you how do you because right now I mean we know an orthodontics you're getting shocked I mean it's not you know in the past it used to be a hey go to see dr. Smith you go in and you would just go and whatever treatment they wanted to do they could do now it's you know dr. Smith dr. Jones and dr. Paul I mean there's three different doctors now that they're probably you know benchmarking and talking to so you know what we see a lot is that you know you'll get the patient phone calls and they'll give you their their name and information they'll schedule and and then you'll have a 20% fall-off to the exam where you should only have probably about a 10 percent fall-off and so there's just different protocols that you can do there to get those patients into the exam you know a lot of it's just you know phone call protocol a lot of its timeliness of the exam a lot of its just how you sell it on your brand and differentiate yourself and then when you actually get them into the exam you know there's a fall-off there - how many start I granted some of them aren't ready for starting but then you know there's a conversion rate that we track in orthodontics it's around 67 to 70 percent conversion so you're seeing even then a 30% fall off from from who comes into the exam to actually who starts you know so some doctors have gotten that up to 75 80 % you know but on average we look across our portfolio gauge it's about 65% so there's still a huge opportunity there so if you look at let's just say now our average case price is about $5,000 if you're losing if you have six or seven hundred patient that call you per year and you lose 10% that don't even come in for an exam and then you can lose another 30% that don't start I mean your leaky bucket there alone could be upwards of a few hundred thousand dollars so it's a it's a major number now every practice gonna be a little bit different and that's one of the tools that we have at gages we can actually analyze that down to the dollar based on the metrics that you have in our system but what's really interesting about that is that every practice will have a leaky bucket somewhere it's just a matter of you know how big it was I was actually in a practice over a year ago and we this practices on gauge multiple location practice and his leaky bucket was 1.2 million dollars and when I walked him through it actually tears fell out of his eyes because I validate every single one of the points that he knew that he was falling short on but it was something that going forward they could easily correct and  put protocols in place but that's something that if you're not looking at your metrics and you're not watching you're not gonna pick up on those types of trends and that's why I think it's you know really helps differentiate really solid practices from other practices those practices that know their metrics and can kind of understand that and that's where you know companies like ourselves with impact 360 engage can really help from a consulting standpoint from a coaching standpoint I mean just from a metric standpoint really help the orthodontist you know on their practice journey and when you say the people are shopping do you think they're shopping what what do you think they're shopping and mostly just all Pricer convenience or what do you think they're shopping it's probably a lot of different things it's priced convenience you know just how do you connect I mean now it mean it's a very social world right or you want to be able to connect with that doctor it's not just about going to a doctor I mean the doctor has to have a level of personality and be a little connect with you so I mean I think there's no prices is a big indicator right because they're probably want to say 500 bucks from one to the next if that matters but also just that connectivity I think with the staff and the doctor I think it plays a big role in the overall selling of the case 

Howard: so you guys are saying that I'm the the people that call a eighty percent are gonna come in so 20 percent sleeking and 10 percent should be the goal but when they present orthodontics to people who need it now that they're having a percent acceptance rates only a 30 percent leakage 

Ryan Moynihan: 30 percent then from there but you've also lost 10 percent from those new patient calls into the exam I'm doing 30 percent just from the people that came in from the exam they're on 35 well then

Howard:  they're doing twice as good as a general dentist because they got to tell 3 different people they have a cavity before one schedules to have it done now I don't know if it's if they're more motivated to get ortho because it's when I tell someone they have gum disease 10 cavities and need periodontal treatment and a ton of fillings the first question they ask is can I give bleaching done today so you know they just want to look like a pretty little peacock so it might have a higher conversion rate because you're selling something that makes them more beautiful you've been so good on this interview is there anything I can't believe we went over an hour we're at our 7 is there anything that I was too dumb to ask that you wish we would have talked about 

Ryan Moynihan: no I think you covered it it was great I appreciate this yes okay and by the way if you if you're on Twitter which

Howard:  I know all the all the old dentists are on Twitter I know the young dentists are on Instagram if you're a millennial you're on Instagram and if you're a grandpa you're on Twitter and if you're a businessman you're on LinkedIn but looking at the articles that you tweet out dr. Kristen Fitz on how gaged powers or organizations growth and efficiency that's a must read I mean you've got a lot of great content on your Twitter and I hope you do write us an article for ortho town and I think you should do a practice management article or maybe have Mary Beth do that but I just want to tell you I'm the orthodontist are gonna love this the general dentists are gonna love this thank you so much for coming on the show today it was a real honor and a privilege to podcast you

Ryan Moynihan:  I appreciate it I hope that you leave this podcast and go hire your first AI genius every everyone that I'm trying to hire for my company you know I'm I've been courting them for years and they're going to ASU and then they come out of school and man they just want to work on a robot and they're like dentistry it just it's just so boring it's hard to get an AI guy and capture his imagination with root canals and crowns when you could be going to Boston Market and making a jumping robot so if you have any if you have any leftover AI guys from your interviews send them to old dental way cuz I think it's the whole future so again thanks so much for coming on the show today yeah I got one question for you you mentioned who's your football team Arizona Cardinals the car locate Kyler Murray all right it's gonna be fun to watch Tim yeah it is gonna be so fun to watch it who's your team Broncos Broncos and you know what's weird I just saw a map talk about a he gauge map of where all the NFL fans are and the Denver Broncos they got those they got all a Colorado and every state around him whereas the Cardinals just Arizona yeah I figured it in Arizona there's definitely some Denver fans down there so that's why I had had to ask what do you think what do you think the Broncos have like a six seven state I mean they own Colorado New Mexico Utah I know Montana why do you think they owned that whole territory nothing else around there right no I mean I grew up in New Mexico that's how I got the Broncos look right yeah so Utah there's nothing in Wyoming's nothing Miami or Montana it's nothing Idaho's nothing Nebraska there's nothing the Dakotas I mean you maybe get a little Minnesota Viking there but yeah today they own that Rocky Mountain region I'm a big John Elway fan that guy is amazing and Pat and Manning given him another year to go show his stuff but again thank you so much for coming on the show today I appreciate it take care of us.

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