Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran
Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran
How to perform dentistry faster, easier, higher in quality and lower in cost.
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1150 Trevor Maurer President & CEO of Smile Source & Jamie Cassidy VP Business Development Member Support : Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

1150 Trevor Maurer President & CEO of Smile Source & Jamie Cassidy VP Business Development Member Support : Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

3/4/2019 9:52:15 PM   |   Comments: 0   |   Views: 263

A highly experienced leader, with a track record of generating results through leadership, talent management and culture development. Maurer thrives on the challenge of successfully turning around, building and creating enormous growth opportunities. 

As a graduate of the University of Saskatchewan, Maurer was recruited to Procter & Gamble, where he became their top sales representative in less than two years.  He spent 12 years of rapid and successive promotions in both Sales & Marketing at P&G and Novartis in the US and Canada.  He then rose to CEO positions in both venture capital and private equity funded health care companies.

VIDEO - DUwHF #1150 - Trevor Maurer


AUDIO - DUwHF #1150 - Trevor Maurer

Maurer currently serves as President and CEO of Smile Source, where he has grown the company to over 630 independently operated franchise dental practices with an average practice size of $1.2 million in annual production. Based on current projections, Smile Source will be the largest dental group in the U.S. by 2020.

Maurer is also actively involved in Youth Sports in his community, coaching travel hockey programs for over a decade. 

Howard: It's just a huge honor for me today to be podcast interviewing Trevor Maurer, who is the president and CEO Smile Source and Jamie Cassidy who's a vice president of business development and member support. Trevor is a highly experienced leader with a track record of generating results through leadership talent management and cultural development. Maurer thrives on challenge of successfully turning around building and creating enormous growth opportunities. As a graduate of the University of Saskatchewan where I assume he saw and met Bigfoot, Maurer was recruited to Procter & Gamble where he became their top sales representative in less than two years he spent 12 years of rapid and successive promotions in both sales and marketing at P&G; and over itis in the US and Canada, he then rose to CEO positions in both venture capital in private equity funded healthcare companies. Maurer currently serves as president CEO a Smile Source where he has grown the company the over 630 independently operated franchise dental practices with an average practice size of 1.2 million dollars in annual production, based on current projections smile source will be the largest dental group in the US by 2020 and then his co partner here Jaime Cassidy, vice president business development member support. She loves enriching lives by enabling dentists to reach her full potential, she's highly energetic and results driven cells leader who thrives on the challenge of crafting positive changes. Some of her strengths include effectively training others on leadership talent management and culture development. Her passion and tenacity has heard earned her the description of relentless on more than several occasions which she considers a compliment. It's such an honor to have you guys in the show, I first got interested in smile source because I was aware of the success that Vision Source your sister company that started before you guys had with the 30,000 automatize. You guys got 3,500 of the 30,000 Optometry optometrist to become a member of vision source and then dentists start asking you guys to do for dentistry what you guys did for optometry and it's really interesting and you got a background in private equity and venture capitalists. You know a lot of dentists are afraid of these DSOs would you say that Smile Source is an answer to the DSOs?

Trevor: Yeah absolutely would say where the answer because as an independent dentist you can't compete with a 500 location or even at 50 location DSO but if you work together and aggregate your power then that's a chance for survival and thriving actually.

Howard: So what do you actually what would you do for an independent dentist that a DSO would do for him if he or she sold to Heartland or Pacific or Aspen or whatever what would what are you doing for your individual member dentist?

Trevor: Sure so I'll capture that in we do four things but the biggest difference above all else is we can't force you to do anything because at the end the day you you retain ownership of your practice you make whatever decision you want. So it's a little bit like the gym membership right you pay and then your trainer tells you what to do, if you don't want to pick up the weight I guess you don't have to right but since you're paying the membership it kind of makes sense to use it. So what we do the DSO would do right, so the first thing is that DSO would do this is we get great pricing that's the easy thing that everybody understands in fact sometimes we're confused as a buying group I know Jamie and the sales process with their sales team that's one of the things that they're run into Smile Sources is a buying group. Well that's not true but one of the four things we do is we have an amazing formulary of heavily discounted world-renowned products that we buy as a group so we're gonna save you a lot of money. You can't save your way to prosperity and if Smile Source could get you free lab and a free supplies that still doesn't help you run a better long-term more successful practice right so we want to help you make more money and enjoy what you do more because if you enjoy what you do and you make money at it you're probably going to do it for a long time. So number one the formulary you save a lot of money. The other three things that we do that a  DSO would do are all focused on revenue generation and your own employment satisfaction. So one is marketing, we have an outstanding marketing department and internal and external agencies that we provide to help you make a really good marketing decision. Dentists get called upon by all these different marketers that are gonna save their practice all at the same time and what we do is we vet them we share across our 650 locations the best ones we share case studies on what's worked and what hasn't and then we're able to make really really good choices and really be the marketing strategist behind our offices you can spend the money with the marketer you select we help you pick the right marketing strategy and you know give you having suggestions so that's the second piece first was the gpo the formula second is the marketing. The third thing that we do is we do provide great education right and we know we're supportive of the professional education houses there's lots there's spear, panky, LBI, AACD, AGD we're very supportive of those about what we do internally at smile at national meetings state meetings local meetings and online is to really drive our offices to I guess be stronger producers in certain areas so want to get into sleep dentistry you know implants our implant rate is three times the national average technology rate is depends how you measure two to four times and at the national average for things from chairside milling to you know internal scanning so we really helped you get down those pass it couldn't be just case acceptance. So help you achieve your goals that help you grow your practice through education which is a big change from the days of vision source when education was left in the state and national associations when we were there Jamie. It really is important for our organization to provide it and we realized that when we bought a company called ace the only generation next and then the Academy of comprehensive aesthetics so we came together in 2014 and they really became the education inside a Smile Source which has been fantastic those are the three things. The fourth and final is really bring it all together in a common peer advisory format. So regularly in the local cities at least quarterly and sometimes monthly our groups meet the share best practices they do issue resolution, we do I need to make a decision help me make a better decision they hold each other accountable at the next meeting you'll come and you'll talk about literally the case study that you presented should I hire an associate should I terminate an employee should I take this new insurance and really getting good advice from your peers that you trust. So that is you know business guidance one could hear so the formulary your marketing support you get education and you get business and practice management guidance to run your business except at the end of the day what's different about us is you own the profit loss statement you own the profit you own the risk you're the business manager and we just help you be more successful, which we proven you know our practices 1.2 million dollars or practices always outpace the market growth by at least five percent year-over-year that's not all based on savings that's based upon growing the practice which is you know really the message that I want to share with you today. Jamie has lots of examples of how our Doc's you may love what they do and they make great money.

Howard: All right well there's demonstrate and censored so let's get right to the bottom line what does this cost?

Trevor: So because it's a franchise I am NOT allowed to say the percentage of production it is a percent of production but what I can tell you the average practice is gonna pay around a thousand a month to be a member small source that's easily offset by two or three times per month on savings. What do you find in the field?

Jamie: Yeah about that and our savings are guaranteed to pay your fees.

Howard: So it's basically a thousand a month so okay what you were saying is that in healthcare you can't have a franchise

Trevor: You can just I can't broadcast on a podcast what our fee is because that would be viewed as solicitation you just can't do it that's against franchise laws.

Howard: huh okay well I always considered laws just to be a suggestion I never took them serious there's an actual rule. I told my four boys the only absolutely rule written in stone is you will talk to your father before you talk to the police it's been a very good it's a very good piece of advice so it comes out to be about a thousand dollars a month and you basically say you basically guarantee that your going to get savings so let's start with the money saving and I love the fact that a Smile Source you're saying the difference between that and a DSO is a DSO is they buy into you so they own you, you're their employee you do what they say, whereas you Smile Source is something you can join and then I assume quit whenever you want what's what's the back out of the contract if someone signs up and then decides six months later they don't want to do it.

Jamie: So we actually it's a five-year agreement there's a 12 month out so when a new member joins they've got 12 months to fully experience being a member of smile and at that point if they choose to leave they can most don't and getting back to the savings for a second, we give our members extraordinary tools and resources and as Trevor mentioned we can't tell them what to do but we have incredible vendor partners who work with our members and offer them you know some great pricing.

Trevor: So I can show this right, so we have a new member offer so we joined smile you get from our labs and our dealers and our manufacturers get twenty eight thousand dollars in free product you get a one-year money-back guarantee and your first year fees on average or twelve thousand dollars it financially is the biggest no-brainer in the business.

Jamie: Absolutely

Trevor: but not everybody can join.

Howard: because you have a franchise geographical protection

Trevor: Yes and there's a little bit deeper

Jamie: Yeah so it's actually we are an invitation-only group and the reason that that's so important to us is because of the live meetings that our groups hold every quarter server said earlier some even do once a month because it the collaboration that happens at these meetings and the pure sharing is so sacred to our members we always want to make sure that a new member coming in is the right fit for that group. So we vet our new members.

Howard: So it's a referral only network because you want them to have chemistry it's kind of like each other a lot of employees don't work out and has nothing to do with them they just I mean maybe you're a 70s rock girl and like yoga and you work in a dental office where everybody likes country music. I mean really HR is the most important thing in any business any sports franchise anything and so much of it is not right or wrong it's just it's just chemistry they just they just don't have chemistry. I want to tell you that I called you to be on the show you didn't call me this isn't an advertisement anything like that but I got insurance Smile Source in the very beginning is because you know they I mean they were they get one in five optometrist and you guys got 630 dental offices with a thousand dentists it's hard to get a thousand dentists to agree on anything case in point beginning some people that are upset that I posted this deal on dentaltown and I posted it because it's all over social media is basically that story that went viral on social media over the weekend where this guy in Australia mark was told that he needed six fillings for 1,200 bucks and so he got a second opinion and the second guy said he didn't need anything and dentist asked me why do you why do you print this negative stuff and I said well I do it because your patients are reading it you don't want to hear about this the first time they walk in your office and ask about it and you don't live in a bubble you live in a real world and this has been going on the entire 31 years I've been a dentist because when I get at school the reader's digest, their most investigative journalist who won the George Polk award William Ecenbarger wrote a cover letter on how dentist rip is off and how he did that journalism is he took his x-rays and his study models to 30 different dentists and got 30 different treatment plans and then a lot of people don't realize at the NIH look at this and said is this serious. So they went and got study models and a FMX and they went to 100 dentist and they got 99 different treatment plans because two dentist said they needed nothing and then treatment plan 3 through 100 every one of them was different, so yeah you need chemistry because some groups you show them a set of study models they go right to occlusal disease some are you know the dentists it's not a standard it's not like an assembly line like when you make 10 million Model T's everyone I'm the same I never understood how the DSO thing could work because I don't think the success in a business is saving money on supplies it's how that dentist diagnoses treatment plans and presents so that's pretty interesting. When you talk about saving money let's go to that some people what do you think labs and supplies should cost a dental office?

Trevor: So where should you run, so I think you should run you know max 4 percent on supplies it's hard to say labs because if you're doing a high-end cosmetic or single crown at the back right so I think that's run in 4 to 5 percent maybe 6 but again when you're doing you know 25 million dollars a lab like we are you can get really great rates onshore or both for labs specifically.

Howard: So I'm that it so when somebody takes in your office I mean there's a lot of dental offices that run six percent supplies and ten percent labs and is that when you get a new member is that usually a great starting point of saving them money.

Trevor: For sure

Jamie: Yeah absolutely it kind of came back to what you're saying couple minutes ago with the chemistry that is so important to us but we are also extremely mission-based right. So the one thing that all of our members have in common is that they are fighting with us to preserve and protect independent demonstrate. So the savings is fantastic but at the end of the day our members are members of Smile Source because their mission based.

Trevor: Dental Economics had an article that just came out last week Howard that talked about how you know DSOs are in the schools and they're telling these students the only solution you have you have come work for us you'll never pay down your $350,000 in debt and then you're gonna get married you make a house you get your car and your million dollars in debt you need to be an employee somewhere or you'd have to make it. If you model that out if you look at that article and you model out the income from working in the DSO versus starting a practice and you model a DSO over ten years they're gonna make almost twice as much money networking for themselves and growing equity in a practice and the ability to basically...

Howard: How much more money?

Trevor: You can get up to double if you look at what you're gonna do in terms of the ability to give yourself raises by producing more versus being an employee. So we're really interested in that, we're running some financial models on that article to make sure that we can promote that to students that there is an option because no one's talking to them in the school right now that their's an alternative the corporate industry you've heard all the stories about the entire graduating class goes and works in corporate because that's who's there that's who's buying the pizzas through the rewrites and sponsoring classes.

Howard: Right I mean it's so easy and going to any dental school and if you offer pizza you'll get the whole damn school I mean and so someone would only go in there if they had something to sell. So these kids are massively exposed to DSOs who tell them this is you know that when Howard got out of dental school all the pharmacists were independent practitioners and now all the pharmacists work for Walgreens and CVS and Howard's a dinosaur and give up today and join DSO side but it's so easy to counteract that argument because any time any kid tells me that I say okay well go find the graduating class three four five years out contact them all and ask him if they're living happily ever in a DSO and what you will find and what I will find is that they have a different job every year until they finally decide to take the plunge and dive in and open up their own thing. If you want to get a thousand people to agree with you you need to join the army and have a bunch of young recruits 17 to 18 years old but don't recruit a thousand dentists that all have eight years of college and if you show them an FMX in a study model everybody sees something differently but now they're all the sudden gonna agree with me and the DSO president. I mean it's it's a batshit crazy business formula and I've lived through it twice now, so remember I got out of school in 87 and...

Trevor: Remember Sears Dental I think was around then?

Howard: Oh my god Orthodontic Centers of America was the only one that made it publicly traded on the New York Stock Exchange. Lazarus whose know who was out of New Orleans now he's retired in Florida yeah he had a billion dollar valuation on the New York Stock Exchange there's a dozen on NASDAQ and every single one of them imploded and they all imploded for the same reasons that now three decades later it's the same thing and you know herding dentist is like herding cats they're not a bunch of humble people they know everything and they're not gonna agree with anybody including you or me so you know it just is what it is it's not a system for a bunch of yes people but I think it's interesting but and you all said something very profound because a lot of people in their study Club don't you know they'll be hearing oh my god labs should be 5% mine's 12% yeah buddy you're a prosthodontist or your big cosmetic dentists and you're doing veneers and full mouth when we're talking about labs should be 5% we're talking about you know over 90% of all impressions sent to a lab or for a single unit. So if you're mostly doing single-unit dentistry yeah your lab supplies to be 5% and now on supplies what who are you getting are you getting your supplies from one guy is like a big bulk purchase purchase from shine or somebody or do you shop them around many places?

 no we don't we don't shop around we have five authorized dealers we have Darby, Schein, Burkhart, Nashville dental, Atlanta Dental. So you'll Burkhart, Nashville and Atlanta are clearly regional or it's like a western US and then Nashville is you know Tennessee and the surrounding states and Atlanta Dental has that come to southeast and Atlanta. Then Darby came in as a first true national dealer their telephone they do an exceptional job and we ended up bringing Schein in because there is a segment of our membership that would that wants what we call a walk-in lab so if you want to walk in rap there's a national option as well but if you buy from your bank or paths or the others those are not authorized dealers and you don't get a pricing.

Howard: So it's Darby, Schein, Burkhart and Atlanta dental supplies

Jamie: and Nashville, yes

Howard: Atlanta dental supplies and Nashville dental supplies

Trevor: Yeah it started regionally so when we were small Howard so Burkhart was the first first real dealer we had a walking rap with and then as we started to expand to the east you know we then with Atlanta Dental and Nashville Dental and that was fine for our footprint I guess you couldn't keep the good news from the Northeast us and we started having all these offices in the northeast and we had no dealer. So everything was being mail ordered by Burkhard, Atlanta, Nashville, they're not really at the time we really mail order type telephone type of companies so we added Darby and that was a great solution until we started buying a lot of equipment that needed service that Darby didn't have in the Northeast and that's when Schein came on and it's amazing people in five those dealers at least 95% of our supply purchases flow through them so it it really is very good utilization of our dealer partners. We've had and our members use our vendors because they want to we can't force them right but you know whenever we bring a vendor on their sales chart close up and whenever we take a vendor off the sales chart goes down because our members that if they support those that support us we'll all do better together and it's that way for education and marketing even a collaboration. You talked about study clubs and the models you know I agree with you clinically we don't push really anything clinically at study clubs you can bring up discussion items, our study club meetings our member meetings are primarily focused on business you know on really helping them make better business decisions with a pure advisory board that's something in dentistry that's just not focused on.

Howard: Interesting so the next thing you talk about revenue generation and is revenue generation from help from Smile Sources at mostly marketing or is that also treatment plan presentation?

Trevor: Marketing treatment plan anything in the educational element like Selina Cosby and you know in Texas you know we we worked with her entered sleep to her practice and she had a hundred thousand dollars to practice the next year right. Our members really get into implants at a rate faster than the marketplace right, so we've got members that are driving revenue through implants. So ways it drives revenue even beyond good case presentation and communication skills or leadership skills we help with those but we're gonna help you through education to really deliver you know specialties in your practice or it just even be better at what you should refer what you keep and then Jamie maybe you can talk about revenue from the local member meetings how that helps.

Jamie: Absolutely so their's a lot of best practice sharing that goes on and a lot of collaboration helping each other to get better during the local member meetings through that sharing I mean there's tons of revenue generating conversations and with local...

Trevor: What a month ago was in Detroit and there's a revenue leakage story like sharing one of the members told a story about we've got some problems with you know his calendar and scheduling and something funny's going on with a long time and the other members of the room were like you don't have a calendar issue you have a theft issue, you know with definition you're being embezzled from right until they it convinced them to at least look at it so he wasn't convinced it was a little bit upset actually he went back they talked to his wife she agreed with the members which is great and he confronted the employee and the employee literally walked out, quit on the spot he was getting ripped off for 20 years and he would have never found it if his peers didn't say buddy pick your head up. Okay so what you want to practice now you typically don't go to your to your team and say hey what do you guys think the problem is if you go a state or a national meeting when I first got dentistry I couldn't believe it everybody was growing their practice by at least 75% a year. Our people were killing it everybody driving porches and Land Rovers and practices exploding so well and then the dealer pulls you over and said that guy you're talking to be careful he doesn't pay his bills right so that's not everybody but I think people were you know for standing more than what's really happening and then when you get a small peer review trust and we ever guys say hey you know what I'm worried about making payroll I've got real problems.

Jamie: Yes so the great thing is when we're working through some of this issue resolution process you know you're sitting across the table form somebody who may be going through this the same time as you are or they've gone through in the past you're certainly not alone in uncovering employee theft or whatever the issue is.

Howard: Yeah that is uh well whenever I talk to you a dental office consultant they say when they go into a dental office about 50% of time they're I'm being embezzled from just to write out about half .so so or would you guys also consider yourself a replacement for dental consultants. I mean if someone's thinking I need to bring in a dental consultant is Smile Source or do you recommend dental consultants?

Trevor: I would emphatically say we are not a substitute for a consultant here's why good dental consultant creates a plan individually for you for management of your practice and then they hold you accountable to that on schedule, right what we do is we help with broader-based business decisions and the schedule is the frequency of your attendance at the meeting so if you're the kind of person that you know doesn't keep a good schedule or doesn't keep yourself on task that's not gonna work for you and that's most people. So we work with a lot of them consulting companies and we love them because they help our practices grow revenue and we're very think of what they do I think people need or your...

Howard: Who do you think are the best dental consultants?

Trevor: So at the risk of offending people right so broad stroke anybody that delivers right we've had independents work with our guys and if they deliver we refer them around locally nationally when it comes to Fortune Management they've involve us for a long time they've got a really nice job Burnie Stoltz there I know you know Burnie Stoltz and I don't think there are I don't think there's a company that I would say isn't good at dental consulting because our Doc's do use whoever they choose. We have a lot of experience with fortune and they've done a nice job though so I can definitely speak to that.

Howard: So fortune is your favorite

Trevor: They're on the list yeah absolutely they're people with us for a long time. We brought in I guess some years ago you know Roger lemon I'm sure

Howard: Right

Trevor: So Rogers done a lot of good work with us recently you've made a lot of inroads into our practices so I probably have to put those two side-by-side in terms of their impact on our practices.

Howard: So back to revenue generation would you say a lot of that is your marketing department helping them with a marketing strategy?

Trevor: You know I can't put a percent on which is more impactful it just depends again on like the Melina Cosby Sleep initiative or implants or marketing.

Jamie: Yeah and it's really specific to the needs of that individual practice.

Trevor: So there are some that have just purely going for marketing and some say I don't want to do any of that marketing stuff I just want to add implants to my practice or I just want to do better case presentation. When someone just want to buy better which is a bit disappointing permissibly.

Howard: You said one of my favorite quotes you can't save your way to prosperity that is just so that is something people don't realize I mean god when you got out of school you've already put eight years of your life and $400,000 of student loans and you're not even calculating in the missed earnings you would have had if you were to work 40, 50, 60 hours a week all during those college years you know doing whatever construction what have you. You can't save your way to success, you want to expand on that?

Trevor: So I think yeah I think a couple things I think that's why you know as I told you earlier our average practice is 1.2 million dollars but we also grow at 5% a year faster than the market so you know when the markets flat we're growing at five the markets at one word on at six and so there's there's some magic behind that the save your way to prosperity it I think it really manifests in a couple ways first way is you know like I said earlier if we give you free lab and free supplies you're not gonna run a better business right if you're wasteful with money you're gonna be wasteful with more money. The second is that, this is the interesting part we don't we don't interview or recruit offices of one size or another if you if you're a big practice we're not more excited if you join than if you're a small practice or where you on the lifecycle of a dentist but for some reason bunch of practices are more attracted to us talk to more of them and they join at a higher rate it's because they get it they know that they have to invest to grow versus the small dentist terrified of spending any money at all.

Howard: Well it's so funny because exactly I mean when you know the ADA I'll tell you what does ADA saying now the average dentist is doing what six hundred and seventy five thousand a year and taking home 187 taking home and the bottom and then you talk to the dental consultant you say to dental consultant I've had a lot of them on my show and they'll say what does the average dental practice in America do there are a million million and a half no not at all just you think that because that's the people you deal with. So people that are getting dental consultants they're in that upper you know twenty it's the 80/20 rule people that are bringing in dental consultants they're the type of person who's just going for it. I imagine the one thousand dentist that join that your guys are working within 630 offices that's the higher echelons of people going for it. I mean unmotivated people burned out fried giving up thrown in the towel aren't gonna a dental consultant or join Smile Source. So the thing about dental consulting and I try to make that one of my missions on this podcast is that everybody who gets a dental consultant is usually already above the average going where I mean they're already in the top of their class and I've been trying to get...

Trevor: We forgot Gary Takacs he does a tremendous amount of work with us. You said our meetings works for their offices, so thank you for reminding it stayed on as this daily consultant pat he's had a great job and I was thinking of him because I was thinking of you when you spoke to our meeting that might have been like four or five years ago so you you've seen the kind of dentists we have. So what was your what was your takeaway what did you see at our meeting or your opinion?

Howard: Well you know I'll tell you different seeing a dentist and an associate when you got their lecture every dental consultant will tell you they know who owns their own practice cuz they're all listening and taking notes and they know who all the associates are because they're on snapchat and Facebook and Instagram during the whole lecture. So you know if you wake up in the morning and you blame everything on your mom and dad in your country and you know everybody's everybody did you wrong except for you and the people that have the mindset that oh my god I mean this is America it's Canada it's Australia New Zealand I mean it's it's your game to lose and you just got to start hustling and going forward and I've also seen the most linear correlation with economic success and that income with hours of CE. You show me any dentists who took a hundred hours of continuing education a year for one two or three decades they're rich they're happy they're you know they were able to pay all their ex-wives off in cash you know they're just they're they're doing really really well. So a lot of it just comes down to you know you got a hustle I mean I wrote an article and dental town magazine a few months ago and it's all about the hustle I mean I everybody I know with a million dollar practice would take an emergency through lunch they'd stay at the end of the day they they would a lot of times they leave their practice and and drive straight to the airport to go take a course. I mean they're just always going for it and in dentistry in any of the 20 richest developed countries on earth of you're a dentist and basically and even in the underdeveloped countries that I've lectured to you know even in like Tanzania or Ethiopia or Somalia country I've been to the dentists that are hustling are still in the top five percent at Tanzania. So they might not have the money and the dentist does in Australia but they have more money than ninety five percent of all the people living in Tanzania so just just amazing and as far as a marketing apartment marketing strategy you need oh what's so hard for somebody to figure out if you need a lot of new patients a month if you're only diagnosing radiographic decay and broken teeth needing a crown. I know so many dentists who if you gave him more than fifteen new patients a month they wouldn't have time to treat them and I was talking to a dentist the other day he it's a hundred new patients a month and he thinks he needs more new patients he gets a hundred new patients a month and he has one full-time hygienist and he thinks he needs more new patients. So it's a very complex deal so you got a marketing department marketing strategy do you do PPO negotiation that's one of the things that I think DSOs have such a major advantage like, like Heartland if they buy your office before the sun goes down they can renegotiate up your your fee schedules on insurance are you a believer in that?

Trevor: Well so next year if you look at the projections next year DSO practices will receive over six percent the increase from PPO's a private practice will receive go to one and a percent decline right this is a decline over the decline over the decline for all of the years so what we've done in six ever states with varying success right it depends on who you ask and what plan they're on as we've formed an IPA independent practitioner association and then using the messenger model to keep it legal because we know it own the practice we have been able to receive some higher rates. Now where where we even as a large group are not going to do as well as in DSO is DSO can make the determination that hey all of our locations are gonna take this fee schedule I can't do that I can't force our Docs to think if these schedule so negotiations are not as good as an owned DSO but they're far far away better than an individual practice. So do we do it yes we're somewhere in the middle it's not the Salvation don't join Smile just because you want to get high up these that's just like getting free lab and free supplies it doesn't change the problem. You know we if we're going to use marketing to change the problem you know one thing that's really cool you know our marketing at its Smile Source has the exclusive with a company called Esite and we do the geospatial analysis. So what does that mean, it means we know through GPS, TomTom and cell phone data where patients drive by your practice we also know what data what they spend on dentistry based on their neighborhoods so we have the exclusivity in dentistry that same company.

Howard: What's the name of the company? Spell it.

Trevor: Esite

Howard: Esite

Trevor: Yes sir

Howard: and that's a demographic company?

Trevor: Yes and also a drive data

Howard: Dive company?

Trevor: Yeah so they know they fault they track your they buy the data from where you use your GPS on your phone or your car because let's say you're across the street from this big neighborhood that you want to market to we don't drive past your practice because that's a bad left turn you just wasted five grand it might be close but where do they drive can they make the turn do they cross the freeway that across the railroad bridge all right so we've made some some really good decisions for our offices wasting money in areas where those patients just aren't going to come to your practice yours not convenient.

Howard: Wow so you have an exclusive with Esite Analytics to help dentist?

Trevor: Yes, site selected, marketing selection.

Howard: Site selection, marketing selection that is amazing. Yeah it's dumb when people tell me you know that like they're gonna buy an office and it's so amazing when these brokers that you know they post them on dentaltown all the time they say here's this practice for sale, here's the report, they send it to me or do they say what do you think about it I always think of two things. Number one, it never comes with any demographics so I you know I don't know as this neighborhood going down is it brand new I mean from time you build a brand new house and the suburbs to the time you tear it down because now it's a crack house and nobody lives there is about a century it's about a century cycle and I first want to know where are we on that cycle. I also know that the DSOs they won't set up a location unless it's you know sixty to seventy thousand dollars a year median household income so now this dentist tells me wants to buy a practice for $750,000 he has no demographic information on it and then the second thing that analysis does it doesn't tell me anything about the stuff I mean is every one of those employees only been there a year because of the employee turnover or am I gonna buy a bunch of people who have been there five six seven years which is really awesome and then red flags if everybody's been there twenty thirty years then within venture that I know they're gonna be paying you know instead of 20 percent labor they're gonna be having 32 percent labor because they gave Sally a raise every time the earth went around the Sun because you know all raises are based on astrology they have nothing to do with a production that income return on assets so so that's really neat that you're helping them out with a demographic information to aid in their marketing and their site selection. I want to get into some of the other stuff you know the people listening you are a lot younger than most people that listen to this show are younger than my children my oldest son Erik is 29, I always say send me an email tell me who you are how old you are or leave a comment on youtube it's a but 25% of my listeners are still in dental school the other 75% or are their all Millennials and they're coming out of school and and you offer help and continue education they want to take it all but they they got $400,000 student loans, where do you see continued education as the best return on investment? If you're walking in dental school you know they've never place an implant they've never done Invisalign they basically you know extracted 15 teeth, did five canals of endo and did 75 fillings. Where would you point them in continue education for a return on investment if they had to you know like a stair step they can only do one at a time?

Trevor: Do you want to jump on this dynamite between all of our vendors and our friends. I'll take the grenade.

Jamie: Go ahead

Trevor: So not a dentist not a dentist I'm just talking about how you can get a great return of your practice quickly I think ortho is quite simple in terms of the the case workup we work with Clear Correct and Six Month smiles and they do such a great job I know every dentist listening this is gonna cringe right but I feel like I could do it I would not do it right I wouldn't do it clinically perfect at all but the case work is so good from these labs if you're a good clinician and you can follow and put the case manager I think ortho is a great place to start if you just look at people in your chair and say have you ever thought about changing the way your smile looks 90% of people said what's the number you know what ninety eighty five percent say yeah I thought about it whitening cosmetic link that is like not even sexy anymore in dentistry nobody talks about it. Their's so many consumers I'm not saying patients because we don't do the job talking with them in this industry. So many consumers they want to whiten their teeth, like if you just ask some simple cosmetic questions you want to be whiter, do you want to be straighter, that's a huge pickup for a new dentist and then you can get into you know once the you know I guess pardon upon cavity let's see become experience you know clinically and you want to start getting into the the cutting or you know implants or sleep dentistry where you start opening the airway a little bit more complex clinical I think ortho then implant and sleep are really great you know path to get though. I think not enough endo is done...

Howard: Lets stay on ortho before you jump on board though, you said you recommend to stay on ortho you said you recommended Clear Correct. Now Clear Correct that's owned by Straumann correct?

Trevore: Yes

Howard: So you chose that instead of Invisalign and so why is that?

Trevor: Oh that's a deep story some of which I can't get into online

Howard: This is Dentistry Uncensored you can even drop the f-bomb

Trevor: I'll tell you what I'll send you a text and you can read it

Howard: but seriously why, Straumann they're the largest implant company in the world through mergers and acquisitions, they bought Neodent Implants in Brazil and MIS out of Israel it looks like all the major patents have expired on these clear aligner treatments and I've seen a burst of probably 20 new entries around the world offering those clear aligners but you chose Clear Correct owned by straumann.

Trevor: The direct answer is when we were small and we wanted to work we always wanted with most well-known brands right, frankly Invisalign didn't want to work with us they didn't want to work with us as a group of independent dentists. They do work with DSOs they didn't they didn't understand us they don't qualify us their words not mine and so we said okay we do want to work with someone who wants to work with independent desks and Clear Correct stepped up huge, they've done great education they're pricing for our doctors is phenomenal and we've grown you know exponentially almost doubled many years but our growth of them has been fantastic because they've done such a good job educating or guess how to do it and Six Month Smiles gover there and such a great job educating our Doc's and growing with us they came right after Clear Correct.

Howard: Whos the name you dropped?

Trevor: Laurie Noelle

Howard: and what did she do there?

Trevor: She's third group sales head. So I think Invisalign missed a huge opportunity so in now that we're doing 750 million dollars in dental production I'm sure they love to work with us but we want to support those that got us here right, you dance with who brought ya.

Howard: I love that yeah I think I've had the same view of them the CEO of Straumann when I asked him to come on the show he was number 839 and mark Marco Gadola came on and it was the only puggy he was so busy and I was so busy the only day he could do it I was lecturing in Canada so I actually it was the only podcast I did filmed in front of a live audience and I said well I have no idea you know what anybody's gonna ask I mean I can tell you I'll always behave myself not but I have no idea what the the audience can do and they gave him some of the hardest questions and answers and he's a real world guy and answered them and he was just amazing and then when I send emails to the CEO of Invisalign it's just crickets you know you don't hear a thing. So I had the same experience with that, so you recommend Clear Correct what what about then what would your scanner be because when you talk about technology CAD CAM the better by is oral scanning you know Invisalign is owned by align technology which owns iTero. So then what oral scanner are you going with?

Trevor: So I can tell you how we act so in June of last year we bought a million dollars of the trio's right trio scanner so there's tons of offices have trios we had upgraded from technology we're with 3m digital scanner, we had about 160 of those I think and then I'd say we upgrade the trio's we have a great partnership with DENTSPLY but trios has really been the favor of the members lately for sure.

Howard: and do you recommend do you see it's a better buy for cad/cam or the trio's oral scanner from Copenhagen Denmark three shape?

Trevor: So explain what to mean you talk about chairside mill or you're talking with just the scanner?

Howard: Just the oral scanner I mean I mean you know what would I'm a big believer in oral scanning just because every lab tech CEO that's come on this show has told me that when you send in an impression polyether polyvinyls, they're getting about five percent remakes when you send in oral scanner it's only one, when you send in an impression what's that?

Trevor: Thanks for saying that when I came to dentistry the first thing I did I obviously learning about the industry I toured labs and they take a model and they scan it, why don't you scan the patient?

Howard: Yeah well when I get out of school in 87 there were actually 30,000 labs now that numbers been cut in half to 15,000 just because anybody could be a lab man in 87 y'all you need it as a flame and some wax and a spatula and a mixing bowl but now you need all this equipment but on the back to the oral scanners does your mentoring groups does your focus groups do they think oral scanning is better than taking an impression with polyvinyl, polyether?

Trevor: They do and if you look at the amount of numbers I think we're running around 70 percent of our offices have oral scanners and the industry is what maybe 15 or 20. So just through a utilization we support that and you know you're asking me to give this specific answer yeah the trio's is that is the darling for sure the value for the dollar is very very high quality our Smile Source pricing is incredible and our guys love it.

Howard: and so 70 percent of Smile Source dentists use three shape trios or...

Trevor: No they have a scanner in their office

Howard: Okay so 70 percent of Smile Source dentists use a scanner but do you know what percent would use the one you recommend three shape I mean is that the most used among your dentist?

Trevor: It is it is

Howard: It is and who would be your second most common?

Trevor: So the second I think would be 3M just cuz a legacy we had so many of those I think there's a bunch of those around but I would suggest their utilization is a lot lower. Trios is just easy to use and then you look at utilization though we also have over a hundred fifty practices with Dentsply chairside mill yeah the CEREC units.

Howard: So let's go to CEREC then do you think that is a great idea. I mean you know why would you know what percent of CEREC cad/cam units right now do you think are just coat racks?

Trevor: My opinion probably say data at least a third offices to be used in a meaningful way.

Howard: We had the top dog Pat Bauer of Heartland dental they have 915 offices and on their mergers and acquisitions they bought over a hundred offices that had CAD CAM and 80% of them are not being used that's an expensive coat rack you know at least my coat rack is a treadmill at home and I like it because you can actually hang the hangers on the thing.

Trevor: (Inaudible 49:16) right let's say your with Smile Source and you're paying forty or fifty dollars for a single unit posterior crown, how do you justify making it out of CEREC...

Jamie: Right

Trevor: From a marketing perspective in dentistry same thing dentistry it makes perfect sense I get it I get CEREC.

Howard: I'm gonna call bullshit on that, I mean I've been a real dentist for 31 years and I still have a real dental office in Phoenix Arizona where I still work at and when I tell you you need a crown the only two things come in your mouth half the country says how much is it gonna cost the other half the country says oh my god I'm scared or you give me a shot. No one says you know I'm only concerned about getting it on the same day it's like just like if my doctor told me I had prostate cancer I wouldn't say wow only if you can fix it today I mean if I if you can't do same-day prostate surgery I'm out of here I mean same-day is a marketing mythical legend and my lab man who I've used up the street for three decades on that rare occasion where someone comes in says oh my god is there any way I can get it today or tomorrow I'll call my lab man and since I don't abuse it he always says I will you know and so I the same day thing unless Phoenix Arizona is different than the rest of the world I mean I just I don't see any data on this huge demand for same-day but I see monster data on this is expensive you take my insurance can I make payments and my god will you put me to sleep or give me nitrous or can I have a valium and I mean same day. I don't even think it would make the top ten questions if I told you you needed a crown I don't even think same day would show up in the top ten and anybody who tells you that it's the main thing is drinking something other than bottled water you know.

Trevor: Tell me how you really feel

Howard: Yeah the other thing I don't understand is that everybody teaching it says that you can do it in an hour but everybody that I talked to it ties up that chair for two to three hours and back to the prostate exam would you like a two to three hour prostate exam or would you like you know a ten minute appointment and come back in a month. I mean I don't think anybody wants to sit in a doctor's office for two and a half to three hours and then here's the moral hazard because you know everything is an actuarial risk analysis versus moral hazard when you've been sitting there two and a half to three hours then I go to try it in and it's not quite right I don't have the guts to tell you to sit there for another hour an hour and a half while you re-make it so you cement an inferior product whereas if you just came in I took off the temporary tried on the crown and it was that one to five percent remake you know you only been in the chair ten minutes I said Trevor I'm sorry and it's a B and I don't see my b's I only cement A's sorry dude I got a reading press in the back that's not that big a deal but if I said hey Trevor did you like the last two and a half hours we need to do this again I mean it's not know I and but anyway my but do you so if some new kid was coming out of school she's got $400,000 student loans she's 25 years old and she's point blank asking you she's saying Jamie you are in practice development you've seen a thousand offices do you think I should commit to cad/cam and go out and buy a hundred and thirty five thousand dollar Dentsply Sirona CEREC machine and start flying to Scottsdale and taking all these courses.

 Jamie: No

Howard: I'm sorry I couldn't hear you...

Jamie: No but what I would recommend is once they join Smile Source they will have now a thousand mentors who will be able to walk them through exactly what they should be doing and when and how and why.

Howard: and same question with oral scanning should you just stick with a seventeen dollar impregum impression or would you recommend these twenty thirty forty thousand dollar oral scanners?

Trevor: So if you have any patient pull at all I think you should I think she'd use oral scanning because you're gonna get a better quality impression or get less remakes and that's a better patient experience.

Howard: Yeah and the difference between what is and what I like about it the most and it's probably different than you guys you guys look like you're still in your 30s but at fifty-six when you scan a tooth I love scanning just because when I scan that tooth and then I see that impression forty times larger on the computer I mean that's just like wow. I mean the fastest way to increase the quality of Dentistry is simply seeing more so when you go from the naked eye to three point eight loops you're a better higher-quality dentist. Everybody wet hands that includes the the hygienist you can't be wearing loops and your assistant isn't I mean to raise the quality the fastest easiest way is everybody with their hands wet and someone's mouth needs loops and then second is when you go to oral scanning and you see your preps 40 times larger you see all that all the issues and I don't know a single endodontists that doesn't own a microscope and they're only looking down the canals at 8x and they basically say it only happens about once a day it's just this little final check at the end and then they look at at 8x and say oh my god there's a missing canal or one of those canals is still filled with sludge.

Trevor: Howard let me come back to that 25 year old dentist, all right in terms of what they should do now every situation is a little bit different but to build them when Jamie said that 25 year-old dentist is on their own they got their own practice they really don't have guidance right Smile Sources fee is a percent of revenue so if you don't have any revenue powered what you think the fee is there's no right there's no fee money no revenue there's fee. If you're starting a new dental practice and we don't focus here we don't target here we probably don't do a good job and we talk to them yeah but people that are starting new practices then an a-number-one five-star recruit for Smile Source because it's literally really it's a percent of your revenue right your collection so if you want to know as a new dentist should I buy this scanner should I get the mill should i what chair should I get like everything why not join a local group of experts and then get access to a national closed group of experts that have all done it get free advice...

Jamie: and who actually care about your success

Trevor: It is the biggest no-brainer for new offices in dentistry it's a no-brainer for existing 1.2 1.5 2 million dollar practice but if you're a new practice and you can you can buy as well as Heartland can buy and you can get advice as good as anybody in the country I love that angle forget about what I get that dentist intergroup that those tells them like where to start.

Howard: I want to stay with ortho though I don't want to get off that yet your talk about ortho, go ahead...

Trevor: No good that sounds great

Howard: You said Clear Correct which is owned by Straumann and you also did you also...

Trevor: We started were clear correct long before they were owned by Strumann

Howard: Okay he said on my show that he bought Clear Correct because they were working with you

Trevor: I believe that's true... No

Howard: He said when he saw Trevor... So the other one you said was six month smiles that guys on the website that show numeral six month smiles so numeral six month smiles what are your thoughts on that?

Trevor: Again different product like great technology our members have good success so what so I'm not a clinician Jamie's not a clinician I can't say well clinically it's better because ABC all I can tell you is ease of use success in the practice growing the revenue patient satisfaction and those two products are members have had great success with and it's driven revenue so the doctors happy the patients happy and we're happy.

Howard: So again she's 25 she's four hundred thousand dollars in loans came out of school and she can't take everything at once but you said you know continue education, good return on investment, you liked orthodontics, which I'm a huge fan of orthodontics and implants simply because a third party is not setting the fee for you and if you want to know one of the reasons straumann is doing so well and implants are doing so well is because in all these quotes panacea socialized medicine countries where it's everything you want to be you know when I film podcast in Tokyo for this show in France for this show in London they tell me in a lot of them would tell me off the record especially in proper etiquette countries like Japan that they the national government only pays you 100 dollars for a molar root canal but they don't set the fee on implants. So of course they can't do more and oh they said in Tokyo they would at least $800 to break even when that high overhead. So if so everything I've learned about socialized medicine is why I don't want it for me because I only know a lot about dentistry and in all the countries that have socialized medicine for dentistry it's frightening it is absolutely frightening and so I believe if you pay a thousand dollars for an iPhone you should pay a thousand dollars for your damn crown and get it done right. So I promote ortho because again you can be an insurance provider on a PPO or be accepting Medicare Medicaid and you know Cambodia, Vietnam, Paris, France whatever and they don't set fees on braces or implants. So you like Clear Correct and 6 Month Smiles so switch over to implant dentistry what are your thoughts there?

Trevor: So I'm in dentistry again the work sometimes step back the works already in the files right when you grow in your practice or buy a practice there's or ortho work in the files there's implant work in the files you notice that's better than I do right but there's so many patients that either a need need in that plant wanted implant or don't know it was an option and would love to take it if it's presented to them so I think the ability to have a communication is so important so you've got that 25 year old dentist making sure that one of the first things that you take a communications class or they can't sell ortho or implants right once they know how to talk to a patient you know implants has been such a huge boom for our for our offices we've just draw again we've grown a faster an implant than we've grown in ortho by far.

Howard: You've grown faster and implants than you have an ortho?

Trevor: We have.

Howard: and when someone and when they're a member are you going to I mean do you get them a better deal on implants with a certain implant company

Trevor: Yeah for sure. So basically anything that you buy you get a better deal as a Smile Source member but you know we work with companies that really want to educate GP's right. So when we first started this whole dance it wasn't cool to educate GP's on implants ten years ago right that wasn't is there gonna upset a specialists. So implant direct came along and said hey yeah we'll give you the best pricing in the world on implants give a great pricing for independent dentist but more than that is we're going to educate your dentist on how to place implants so we have the first course free at implant direct yeah. So first course is free second course big discount don't get into too many details but it's it is so easy inexpensive and rewarding to be a Smile Source member working with you know implant direct, biohorizons has been with us for a long time, they've got a great lineup though they're pushing more education lately and you know Dentsply the Astra line and the dental implant lines they've really come a long time last year was our biggest growth through Dentsply implants we've ever had. It's all behind education it doesn't matter if you just have an empire line you cut the fee by 50% for the product that's not gonna do it how do you place it and then you know these folks they all take these these primary implant courses they go back to their practice and then they can get a little bit afraid because what if they do it wrong or what they don't have cone beam no you can have that discussion if you need it or not but there's some fear on going to the weekend course they come back in and do it a bunch implants you have to you have to place some implants so we would try to make it easy for people to get that experience the place implants with maxi courses with our members and really getting experience I know Jay Elliot ran it great one here in Houston, still runs a great one in Houston our members love (inaudible 1:02:46) in DC. There's lots of opportunities beyond the initial implant 101 literally training that implant direct would do to get into maxi courses or other advanced training. Dentsply in Charlotte then in Adam(inaudible 1.03:01) from Virginia here nice course out there. So it's far beyond negotiating a price its we just make it so easy Howard for our folks to get educated on it and actually place implants.

Jamie: Yeah and you get all this internal support as well because all of the guys that Trevor Just mentioned

Trevor: It's a lot of cheering

Jamie: Yeah there are our members as well

Howard: You know the founder Implant Direct was Dr. Gerald Niznick and he was podcast 617 and the founder really Biohorizons Was Carl Misch and he was heavily involved in the founding of Biohorizons And those are in fact Carl Misch has the most views of anybody I did on YouTube I think he has ten or twelve thousand views on Dentistry Uncensored Carl Misch just amazing go ahead...

Trevor: We can beat that, we'll try

Howard: You can beat that yeah Niznick I mean both of those guys were just amazingly amazingly genius and the other thing I liked about them is everywhere they disagreed like like Niznick when he didn't agree with Carl Misch, he would say well that sounds like some mischinformation to me but they loved each other and they were so nice and they are so amazing and also I own and I can't believe we went over an hour already. You bought our merge with Ace Academy a comprehensive dentistry is that the one founded by Mike maroone?

Trevor: Mike Maroone the original email this guy right

Howard: The original what?

Trevor: Email list guy

Howard: What's an email list

Trevor: Yeah. didn't you tell a story how you you guys were when the email was becoming the big communication method and you started an email list together?

Howard: Yeah Mike, I credit Mike Maroone of Generation X and Dave Dodell of the internet dental forum and also oh my gosh what's Mike Bar out of Florida. I met Mike Bar first a yahoo group started and so it was something like I forgot this is this going back into the mid 90s but uh something that dentistry at yahoo groups .com or I think it was CompuServe and that's where I met Mike Bar and I can't believe I am forgetting a Mike Bar it's that I don't love you it said I'm getting really old and see how it Michael Bar yeah Michael I Bar out of the Boynton Beach Florida I think I met him in the mid 90s on a dentist at and then it moved to another site and then it was Mike Maroon with Generation X and I like Mike Maroones format. I was on internet dental forum with David Dodell with the endodontists out of Canada but I didn't like the email deal because it wasn't organized and it was Mike Maroone who went to the message board format which is what all the scientists still use today at NASA and all those deals they use a message work format and Mike Maroon started that Generation X and I mean he was the number one pioneer in in dentistry in social media and dentaltown the only the only thing I did different than Mike Maroone is I already had a bricks-and-mortar magazine I had the Farran report and he was all virtual. So it was hard to tell everybody about your virtual websites let's see back then you know when I started dentaltown I'd be twenty years old the Saint Patrick's Day and we launched it on Saint Patrick's Day because I'm a hundred percent Irish and I knew that make my mom happy and when we launched it we changed the name of the Farran report to dentaltown so dental so a magazine is really a direct mail piece to remind you Google says they have one and a half billion index websites and half of those 750 million or active every single month so when I started mailing my bricks-and-mortar flyer magazine dentaltown it was driving it's it's driven a thousand new dentists a month to dentaltown every month since we started 20 years ago, we're still we're still doing that I mean there's over a quarter million dentists on that and Mike Maroone love them to death true pioneer.

Trevor: Let me tell you something about Mike, so as awesome as he is you know that I mean he's a member he runs the whole Connecticut market for us he uses an advisor actually sir director of dental labs at Smile Source, but the best part about Mike that you want to share with your listeners is anybody that's a Generation Next or an ace member from the past we're having a reunion on a cruise ship to Cuba this fall run by Smiles at Sea if you know Elijah desmos.

Howard: Sure

Trevor: We are going to do an ACE reunion Mike and the boys Dean Otto all these guys Tom, all these guys you know. We're gonna go on the smiles at sea cruise to okay yeah so if you're an ACE guy goto Smiles at Sea talk to Elijah Desmond and find out about this this reunion is to be really cool.

Howard: Well it's funny you mentioned that because he called me Sunday night and no one in the house wanted to go to Cuba but they thought well let's go and well dad will go to Cuba and we'll all go to Disney World.

Trevor: Are you going?

Howard: I do not know I I don't know the kids all want to go to Disney World, they have no desire to go to Cuba and I really want to go to Cuba I think that would

Trevor: Come one day early let's do that that round table there's an industry roundtable the day before the cruise.

Howard: That's right and I think Cuban medicine is I mean the Cuban economic policy of communism did not work well but Fidel Castro did really emphasize medicine I don't know if people realize this but the five-year survival rate of lung cancer is only about five percent the United States in Cuba its twenty five percent and they have a and I know people from Phoenix Arizona who left Mayo Clinic and went to Cuba, it's some I think it's a vaccine or something about that but now they're starting vice did episode on it and so now I think it's University of Buffalo is starting to look into this but I am so curious of what their dental industry looks like. What does Cuba's dental industry look like, they have a big population and I think America and Cuba now that we're flying to each other's countries again I think there's a big opportunity to really say hey what did you learn over there and here's what we learned over here and you know Havana used to be the greatest city and the whole Caribbean and I...

Trevor: Let's just go figure it out by ourselves we don't need a cruise for that we'll go and go to Cuba and check it out.

Howard: Yeah hey have you ever if you ever want to throw a seminar in Havana I'll go I mean I'm serious I'll go and I love lecturing for you that one time in Phoenix that was great but I cannot believe man we went way over is there anything you wanted to talk about that I was too dumb to bring up or didn't bring up?

Trevor: No I think we really want your listeners to walk away with is you know we've got great dentists. I listed a bunch of the names that people know like Bernie Dunson is you know he's on our director board he's the incoming president of the American Academy of implant dentistry...

Howard: Who's that?

Trevor: Bernie Dunson out of Atlanta Georgia, you know Gary Radz, Mike Maroone, Tom Heads, Jeff Osborne, Kathy Fraser, Stephanie Mohan, and Melissa I'm offending people I mean...

Howard: Lewis Kaufman?

Trevor: Yep Lewis Kaufman, I mean it's probably 20 people I mean we do this for hours so but the takeaway is if you look at our roster their's just such great dentists involved because they are so passionate big take away they're so passionate about remaining and being independent and if dentists don't choose to work together they're going to be either forced to work together as employees or coming together in their own groups. So we're an easy option to come together in a large group you know lots of benefits no one's gonna tell you we have to do and the mission of Smile Source is to pursue independent dentistry it's not to save you on supplies and labs that's a side benefit that pays for it all but if you really care about the future of your history and you've got a kid that you want to take the practice over you just really want to retire when you want to retire not when you're forced to retire then we'll work for you.

Howard: Well you didn't you didn't mention that you offer financial planning but you just did every everything you ever listening about financial planning has nothing to do with financial planning the only thing you need to know is if you're a doctor in America and you don't get married then you'll never get divorced if you don't have a kid each one cost 250 to 350 so you know if you want to know why is that dentist over there retired at 50 its cuz he never got married he never got divorced you know he never had a kid. Now if you're gonna get married and have seven kids and living you're gonna live in a shoe if you're gonna get married and divorced three times you're gonna die at the chair regardless if you're a smile source member or not. So the bottom line is if you're in dental school and you really want to marry that girl over there named Suzie Q just don't do it and you know just don't do it. My final question you were born in Saskatchewan is big have you ever talked to Bigfoot did you ever go to lunch with Bigfoot tell us what you know about Bigfoot?

Trevor: I think he was at one of our college parties but I don't recall a lot so that's all I remember.

Howard: Well just try to find out what you were drinking at that party where you thought you might have met Bigfoot and then send me a bottle of it.

Trevor: I guarantee was Molson Canadian a hundred percent.

Howard: Well hey and any of those names you mentioned, those are a lot of you know the guy taking over the president of the implant Academy, if you want to send any more of your amazing dentists to come on the show I'd like to hear about it,  because you and I have the same mission. If i thought, you know how many opportunities I've had to start a DSO, you know how many private equity people. Do you know do you have any idea how many I mean it's Laurie's been my president for 20 years and whenever they send me the whole big email thing they want you know there want to have dinner like like I can't afford to eat food and you know insightly we don't have time to go fishing this because it's not part of our mission if we thought DSOs, if we thought all the dentists should work at McDentals's shit I'd have been doing that 30 years ago.

Trevor: McDental's can I use that word?

Howard: Yeah and there and it just I do think a DSO business model will could work someday I just don't think it's been invented yet I you know like in law firms if I join you and worked my butt off for five or six years I might make partner. Well if you go work on a DSO you're not gonna make partner. I think that I think the the business model that could replace could replace the DSO's would be like price Coopers Waterhouse I mean those big law firms big consulting firms it's not a business model where I own all the stock and you're my employee till you die that's not how that works with. So if you're gonna have partners with highly educated physicians dentists and lawyers that business model has been developed among Boston Consulting, Price, Coopers Waterhouse, some of the most prestigious international law firms in the world but I have not seen it in dentistry yet. So I still have a huge passion to keep in this private, private hands and and that's where you and I have the same mission and that's why I invited you two to be on the show I just want to thank you for taking an hour of your life to come on dentistry uncensored and talk to my homies I thoroughly enjoyed it thanks for coming on the show.

Trevor: We thoroughly appreciate it

Jamie: Thanks so much

Howard: All right and give Mike maroon a big hug and a kiss from Howie hey he throws the best parties the only thing I remember and it generation next party is getting back to my a generation next lecture was getting back to my hotel at four in the morning and then waking up after all the morning sessions were over that's the only thing Mike Maroone taught me at any of his seminars. 

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