Dentistry Uncensored with Howard Farran

How to perform dentistry faster, easier, higher in quality and lower in cost. Subscribe to the podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dentistry-uncensored-with-howard-farran/id916907356

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Howard:

It is just a huge honor to be sitting in my house on a Saturday and Deb Roberge stops by. Thank you so much for stopping by and talking to my homies today. Deb Roberge has held almost every position in the dental profession other than that of a dentist. She began her dental career shortly of high school in 1963. Her interest in dentistry is something she had considered for years. Her hopes were to someday graduate from dental school, it just wasn't in the cards for her yet with it all. She has accomplished quite a bit. Deb still has an intriguing story to tell and has had quite a journey to share. She enrolled in a dental assisting program and upon completion happily jumped right in the trenches as a dental assistant on Long Island and New York City where she quickly progressed to the business office.

Deb relocated several times to Arizona, Washington state, and then back to Arizona. Upon moving to Arizona in 1985, Deb purchased a crown and bridge lab. This is where her exposure to the daily challenges that many of her dental practices were facing came to light. Deb wanted desperately to help and find some of the answers to the struggles, particularly with hiring, integrating members, and of course the huge turnover that seems so prevalent in our industry to this very day.

Over the years she served in a large number of practices as a coach and advisor. It was during her tenure working with a consulting group in Phoenix that she perceived a critical need for a new kind of placement service. So many doctors with witchy interface expressed their frustration with both the service provided by existing staffing agencies, and their own failed effort to acquire and integrate the best team members. Debs prior interaction with teams, along with recognizing the challenges between the employer and the employees, became her motivation to make a difference in this critical area of practice management.

In 1997 in Phoenix, Deb created a dental only placement agency with a innovative business model. Within five years she had provided placement assistance for over 800 practices, and had personally interviewed over 3,000 job seekers. She sold her initial business in 2003 and then expanded her concept into a national franchise system with eight locations across the country by 2009. It was a thrill for her to see how far her efforts took her, but traveling and very little time for herself and her family led her to sell the entire franchise system and move on.

Over the years that followed she placed personnel remotely for dentists across the country and enjoyed the interaction. This service grew with no advertising at all, strictly word of mouth from dentist to dentist. They would call and she couldn't say, "No." Having had the opportunity work with many specialist, especially periodontists, Deb observed and heard from doctors in her teams, that existing practice management software system simply failed address many of their most important business needs. So about two years ago she assembled a team of crack software developers to create a game-changing, cloud-based systems for periodontal practices that provides advanced, but user-friendly technical capabilities that go well beyond what existing practice manager systems currently offer.

Our perio team has been in beta testing and is now ready for deployment to the market. "Staying close to teams within the specialty areas is rewarding and os very necessary," says Deb. She is so grateful and appreciative to all the periodontal teams for all the feedback and suggestions they have offered. She says, "They will continue to be listen and develop whatever they can to assist periodontists and their teams to be more efficient for them as well as the referring dentist."

You know, it's funny everybody says, "Politics." And politics in America has only had like an 11% approval rating for like 25 years. I don't think there's a fortune 500 company that's had an 11% customer approval rating ever, and you can blame almost all of that really on the deterioration of journalism. I mean the journalism has been as bad as the politicians.

Debra:

That's right.

Howard:

And in density and in the health care, I've always thought that the reason nobody can run a hospital or a dental office is because of their practice management software. To call Dentrix and Eaglesoft a practice management software system would be like calling me a Chippendale.

Debra:

Well, maybe we would.

Howard:

I mean it's so bad I don't know whether to laugh or cry. I mean it's not even hooked up to an accounting system.

Debra:

That's right.

Howard:

But the company that owns it, Stan Bergman when he's talking to Wall Street, he'll rattle off every number known to man and not one of those numbers is on his own damn practice management software that these dentists have to run their practice like Stevie Wonder or Ray Charles. So you've been in this game for so long, and the people listening to you are so young. Old guys like me read books and go to conventions. These people listen to podcasts. They're 30 and under. What advice would you give? How many years have you been in dentistry?

Debra:

Well I started in-

Howard:

'63.

Debra:

In '63. Graduated high school went to the vocational school. Wound up the best choice for me at the time, and never got out, and I'm listening to this and honestly Howard, I'm exhausted. I didn't realize how much did until heard you and I said, "Oh my Gosh, did I do all that?" Yeah, I guess I have. I see a huge difference. When I started my placement company, which you knew because [Townies 00:05:49] out there, he was kind enough to call upon me very early in my launching this company to help find him personnel, and of course he was very quiet and very subdued at the time. I'm kidding. He was not. And one of the reasons that I developed the format for my company was that I wanted to go out and visit every practice that I was placing, and I only placed permanently, permanent Personnel for because it was more than just saying, "You need an assistant, I'll find you an assistant." No, it's more like we need to know the skills, but we need to know your culture, and I can't find out about your culture over the phone.

So when I shared my thoughts and shared my vision with a lot of my contemporaries, and my colleagues, they laughed their sides off. "Do you know how big Phoenix is? Are you going to be traveling all over Phoenix? Do you have ... " I said, "You're damn right I am," and I did. And it was interesting because I opened my doors originally in November of 1997. Right about the same time that you launch Dental Town because I remember you didn't have any of the sophistication back then. It was pretty much like mine because we were just on the-

Howard:

I was a dentist, Dental Town was born in the break room.

Debra:

That's right, and that's where I met you in the break room.

Howard:

I know.

Debra:

I met you in the break room. And so-

Howard:

Was I eating a vegetable or a piece of fruit or was it a big donut?

Debra:

You were ... As I remember ... I don't think you were at all actually-

Howard:

Then it wasn't me.

Debra:

But I remember you had a team.

Howard:

It couldn't have been me.

Debra:

You had a team just like you they were just vibrant and out ... And I knew that immediately, so it was a no-brainer. But going out and visiting every practice to me was so critical because if I don't know what you're about how can I ... An assistant is not an assistant, is not an assistant for just anybody. So going out and interviewing my practices was critical, and I don't regret it one bit. I came back, I had a vision, I knew what he who he was. What the team was like. It was a great way for me to integrate people properly. I only placed permanently. I felt that I wanted to take my experience from in office management, which is what I did for many, many years prior to opening this particular location in Phoenix on the Camelback quarter, is where I was, and so I integrated a little bit of my previous forte with desert dental staffing. I put them together.

So for example, and I had a whole legal team behind me, so anything that I gave to any of my client dentists was blessed by an attorney, and basically what I did was I made sure that you knew the proper interviewing questions. That you knew how to hire. That you knew that we don't just shake hands and say, "Okay, I'm going to hire you." There was a discipline involved. We're missing so much of that and I write about this quite a bit to this day. I wanted there to be discipline. I wanted to make it so that we don't have a huge turnover. The turnover in our business is ridiculous. I mean I used to say it's like dog years. If you have someone for two years, it's 14.

Howard:

That's a great ... I've never heard that.

Debra:

I mean it's-

Howard:

Turnover in dentistry is measured in dog years.

Debra:

For me. She's been with me for two years-

Howard:

You know it's such a [inaudible 00:09:26] because when I go to Verizon and upgrade the new cell, I don't care who's there because I trust iPhone, and if I want to go from iPhone this number to that number I don't care who it is. But when I go to a dental office and you tell me I have four cavities, I don't know ... So when you go to my office and Jan's been there 30 years-

Debra:

That's who I met, Jan. I couldn't ... I knew it started with a J.

Howard:

She was my first dental assistant. Don't you think it's more important to get rid of staff turnover if you're selling something that's based on trust.

Debra:

Absolutely.

Howard:

Versus something that's a brand that you can pick off a shelf.

Debra:

Well there are a lot of reasons why you have longevity. For one thing, believe it or not, it is the fact that you're so verbose. That you talk, that you communicate. That to me is one of the big problems we have is that the conversations, if they're there, it's just because we have to come down on someone. It's not, "How was your day? You did great today." I know this sounds very passe, but just saying something to that nature it means so much. We are caregivers. Caregivers don't like change. Caregivers like to be appreciated. Caregivers don't like conflicts, so you put this all together and what have we got? So one of the things I've always said is, "Slow the process down."

Now can you go back to when you hired Jan, do you remember how you did that? I'd love to hear because sometimes there's a thread of commonality, and that's why it worked. Tell me how you hired her.

Howard:

I remember my greatest hires, I was with a patient, I think she was scheduled to come in at a later time. Same other thing happened with my favorite hygienist the whole time was Missy who stayed with me until she got married, had a bunch of kids, all that stuff, but they came to the interview early because they weren't going to let me interview them until they interviewed the office first. They showed up 15 minutes early there. They were talking to the front, and then without anybody's permission walked in the back, and was walking around and talking to everybody, and I realized, "My God, is that my interview?" And she was checking out the whole place, talking to the all the people because I realized in her mind it wasn't about whether I wanted to hire her or not, it was about whether I had the honor ... Whether she was even going to considering working for me and I thought, "These girls."

And then when you go to a lot of the dentists, you watch them interview. That person doesn't even say anything. The dentist is in there talking the whole time.

Debra:

That's right.

Howard:

And I just thought, "Man, these girls are." Jan and Missy were figuring out if they would consider working in this office with all these people.

Debra:

That's passion, Howard. That's what that is. They didn't want a job, they wanted a career, and they had a career. And that's why they were with you as long as they were. Absolutely, and I love hearing stories like this. One of the things I talked about a lot is body language, and you can tell a lot from that. I mean they came right in and showed you their body language, and they were looking at your culture basically. They wanted to see if they were going to fit. Obviously they fit well. Now are both of them pretty outgoing? Light brights would you say?

Howard:

I think so. Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

Debra:

Of course, of course. Which by the way is a good time for me to interject this. I hear this a lot, one of the questions I ask a past employer if I'm interviewing someone that they had in their employ, would you hire ... If you had the chance would you hire them again? That is the most ridiculous question and I'll tell you why because you're advised to say yes or no. What if someone says, "Howard would you hire Jan again," of course after all those years you got to be deaf, dumb, and blind not to realize there's a reason she's been with you that long, but nonetheless. Would you hire her again if you had the change? And of course you're going to say yes, but here's the caveat. What about the dentist that doesn't like talking? What about the dentist that likes an environment that is quiet? We have candles burning. We're just very ... A very quiet atmosphere.

Jan could be fabulous at what she does, but she wouldn't be fit for him, so your listeners should know that it's really not a fair question. The other thing is would you hire them again? Yes, now here's something else I've seen. For some reason, I don't know why, well I do know why, dentists that have been embezzled, many of them will not take action. They just push them out the door and let them go. Either they're fearful of retaliation, or they feel sorry for them, whatever it is. So they don't press charges. They don't do a thing. So this person, she was a great employee. She was self motivated, she was independent. Winky, winky because she was playing with the books, winky, winky. What happens then? Would you hire her again? Now you want to say, "No," but you're going. "If I say no and she doesn't get the job, she's going to know it's me. My house is going to be bombed. What am I going to do?" So what do they say, "Absolutely."

Not a fair question. To me you get to know this person as much as you can. This person is going to be with you hopefully for a long time. Now granted, things happen in life. Like you said, someone got married, had children, her lifestyle changed. That's great. People move away, people have illness. Nothing is forever, but if you can attract that right person right from the start, and continue to cultivate things properly between you, you'll have-

Howard:

When my assistant Crystal [inaudible 00:15:39] when her husband got transferred to California after 15 years I told her I said, "I'll pay for the divorce. I'll put you up in an apartment."

Debra:

I bet you did.

Howard:

I did.

Debra:

I've heard some things like that.

Howard:

I couldn't talk her out of it. She went with her husband and three kids.

Debra:

I've heard some crazy [crosstalk 00:15:54].

Howard:

I seriously ... I felt like someone hit me in the stomach with a baseball bat.

Debra:

I know. When you find [crosstalk 00:15:59].

Howard:

When you find that right person there ... I have five sisters and usually I can tell usually within a year or two they should feel like, you should love them like a sister.

Debra:

Sure.

Howard:

You want to see them, they're fun, you got their back.

Debra:

That's right.

Howard:

You do anything for them. I want to go back to that theft embezzlement thing. The consultants say when they go into offices they'll find embezzlement half the time.

Debra:

I know. I know.

Howard:

And when you and I started back in the day it was all paperwork. It was pegboard, it was a paper trail.

Debra:

That's right. That's right.

Howard:

But now that it's all gone digital, there's like 100 different ways to embezzle.

Debra:

Absolutely.

Howard:

And the embezzling people are finding new ways of doing it every year.

Debra:

I know. I know.

Howard:

So then ... And the lawyers tell me that the reason the dentists don't report the embezzler is because a lot of times they got you in a blackmail scenario first. Like say you haven't been reporting the cash.

Debra:

That's right.

Howard:

Say you're having an affair with the doctor.

Debra:

That's right.

Howard:

Say that he's calling himself in Vicodin for his sisters roommates cousins brother.

Debra:

It opens up a can of worms.

Howard:

There's something where the state board, the IRS, or your wife is going to be a bigger nightmare than me, so then some people are saying that another way to do it is to run a credit check on them. Embezzlers-

Debra:

Oh, absolutely.

Howard:

So don't go out-

Debra:

It's so interesting because years ago, I'll be honest with you, years ago when I started my company things were different. It was only 20 years ago, but boy it feels like light years. There wasn't very much background checks going on back then. Now granted, if I had a high-profile situation where someone is really running the whole show, I would insist upon it. I can tell you an interesting story. There was someone that came in she was applying for very high-profile job, this was here in Phoenix probably 18 years ago whatever it was, and she was going to be running a couple of different offices. So I said, "Look, I told my client and he agrees I want you to agree to a background check," and she said, "Oh, okay. What does that involve?" I said, "Well, basically I need to know every name, every last name you've ever had. I need you to approve your social security number, and maybe some states where you've lived. Just make it easier for the tracking purposes. So I said, "I actually have a form for you to fill out if you wouldn't mind," and she looks at me and she said, "You know Deb could do it, but I'm just having such a problem remembering my social. I just drew a blank." And I said, "Well do you have a card with you?"

"I have it in the car." Have you seen her? I haven't seen her in 18 years. Boom out the door. Now I have a child who's special needs, she can tell you her social, so I'm thinking, "Are you serious?" The point is you can learn a lot before you even go into that area, but today I tell everybody please ... And even clinical assistants because there was ... I don't know if you recall, there was a ring here in Phoenix many years ago with a very well known oral surgeon where his team had a whole thing going on. Back then, script pads were everywhere, you just put in your purse. They were selling things on the street, and the whole team was out the door-

Howard:

You mean drugs?

Debra:

Yeah.

Howard:

Pain pills.

Debra:

Yeah.

Howard:

Yeah, that's anther thing they're finding with the embezzling that not only are they embezzling, but a lot of them are selling prescription so Hydrocodone. It's amazing. You know what the background checks totally changed because 20 years ago the divorces were fault where the judge wanted to know why you were getting divorced. A lot of Millennials won't even believe this, but back in the day all the background checks were divorce [inaudible 00:20:05] that the husband, the wife they wanted to prove if someone else was cheating all this stuff.

Debra:

That's right, that's right.

Howard:

And finally a judge says, "You know what? We don't even give a shit anymore. We don't even care." So states are pioneering no fault divorce and that sounds so obvious, but then all these background check private detectives they were all out of work, so all the private detectives switched over to the fortune 500 and started doing background checks.

Debra:

That's right.

Howard:

Because you're hiring a comptroller in Arizona and [inaudible 00:20:32] he was served three years in Florida for embezzlement.

Debra:

Exactly.

Howard:

And then you hired her for the receptionist. People are crazy, and with digital crimes ... You got to start really taking HR as serious as a root canal.

Debra:

Absolutely. Here's another one for you.

Howard:

Now what was the name of your ... Desert?

Debra:

Desert Dental Staffing. It's still in operation today. It is not by any means exactly how I had ... Business model slightly changed.

Howard:

But you still run that?

Debra:

No, no. Oh, my gosh. I sold that years ago. I sold that in 2000-

Howard:

Who runs Desert Dental Staff now?

Debra:

Gina. Her name is Gina, and I can't think of her last name off the top of my head because I sold it to her many years ago 2005, and that's when I went on to take my business model and create a franchise, national franchise.

Howard:

With cyber crimes ... This is the first election of my lifetime where a cyber crime rigged the election.

Debra:

I know.

Howard:

I mean I never heard that in any of the early elections, it wasn't even a concept.

Debra:

I know. That's right.

Howard:

And you know what's funny is a no-fault divorce sounds like, well why would anybody care if you were having an affair or me having an affair? Well it was like ... The thing that blows my mind the most is that they had silent movies and the phonograph for almost 40 years before any human dawned on having ...

Debra:

Really?

Howard:

I remember when someone first fell down with chocolate into a peanut butter jar.

Debra:

Of course. Bingo.

Howard:

And I still can't believe that not one talking money thought of adding those two together. Forty years is two generations back that.

Debra:

I know.

Howard:

Everybody was married having kids at 16, 17 back then.

Debra:

That's right, that's right.

Howard:

So a no-fault divorce sounds like a no-brainer. To me, at 54, a background check on somebody on your personal computer, taking credit cards ... People are going in and paying for their root canal-

Debra:

I hear you.

Howard:

And they're transferring the money to their own account-

Debra:

Absolutely.

Howard:

And the dentist doesn't even know how to go up there and monitor it.

Debra:

Oh, it's so true. I just worked with a client placing someone, and she was with him for 20 years, and boy 20 years too long. He had no idea, he had no idea. The other thing I do-

Howard:

And then what's funny is one of the reasons they're all calling for [inaudible 00:22:57] because their overheads so high.

Debra:

Right.

Howard:

And then it turns out well, "Who's your [inaudible 00:23:02]?" Oh, girl buddy. Been here 20 years. Like, "Dude, she's been stealing five, six, seven thousand a month for 20 years and you just thought you had high overhead?"

Debra:

I know, I know. It's very, very sad.

Howard:

So again, specialty do ... So there's three things I want to beat through the [inaudible 00:23:21] head. Do you think solving staff turnover is necessary? Is it really a problem or is just the nature of the beast, dog years?

Debra:

I can tell you-

Howard:

And do you ... And why and how would you do a background check?

Debra:

Okay.

Howard:

So start it off first with-

Debra:

The turnover. There's a reason for the turnover, and I talk about this quite a bit too. We are a unique business, we're even more unique than the traditional medical practice because in the medical practice there's nobody as close in each other's air and space as we are. The patients are hanging over the front desk with the front desk person. Your assistant is in your face with you. We are a very close group. We are also high, high caregivers. Like I said, we don't like confrontation we try our best to keep things cool. But turnover happens because we are a family basically, and we don't approach things as a family. It's prevalent ... It's everywhere because I've placed personnel across the country, and even out of the country, and it happens everywhere.

It's like everything else, it starts at the very beginning. You can't shortcut a hire. Out of all ... It's just like short cutting anything in dentistry. If you shortcut a procedure what's going to happen? It'll fail, so you can't shortcut it. It's got to have a process. As much as people hate it, and usually it's because they need someone fast. I can't wait, I can't wait. Get a temporary in. Have the temporary just scrub instruments. Keep them away from everything else, that's the other thing. Sometimes they'll hire a temporary, they'll be at the front desk, bingo you're opening yourself up to a stranger coming in handling social's, anything else they want to look at. So that's not the way to go.

The turnover happens because we have to slow it down, we have to have a process. We have to think about it, and another thing I'm going to tell you is that people that know me know this, I do not care for titles. I don't like the title office manager, I don't like the title lead assistant, lead anything. Why? Because we are predominantly women that support our dentist. Dentists aren't all men today, many are women, but women love titles. I always say, "Give a woman a title and she's a happy camper. Give a man a raise and he's a happy camper." To us, not so much to me, but to many having a title is everything. The minute you tag on, "You're hired for the office manager," it suddenly, and it doesn't have with everybody, but I would say 75 to 80% of women they run with it. "I'm the office manager. You will listen to me, you will hear me."

Not only that, it's a way of saying, "You will always be overly paid." Paid way more than ... Because you are managing everything. What about job descriptions? Give them a job ... You are a part of the clinical team. You are part of our hygiene team. And the from there, you break it down as the front desk administrator, but if you want to call her that you can, but you don't even need to. Here are your responsibilities, here is the person with you, these are her responsibilities. So these little things that seem like nothing will help. One of the big turnovers we see is because the office manager's just run away with themselves, and the majority of us are caregivers and she threatens us. But yet often the doctor sees this person as handling the money.

She's and she's tough, it's because she's handling the money, and she's handling my business, but it doesn't always work that way.

Howard:

So if you said ... Should they call references because what you earlier eluded to-

Debra:

Oh, I'm going to tell you.

Howard:

Is that when you call a reference they're not going to be truthful.

Debra:

Here's the other thing, I'm glad you brought this up. When it comes to letter of reference, and many times rightfully so an employee who is even dismissed or they're leaving will say, "Doctor can you give me a letter of recommendation?" This is something I have mentioned years and years ago, so for me this is old news. When a letter of recommendation is written for anything, I don't care how great they were or how poor they were, you just ... Remember Dragnet? The facts ma'am, just the facts. Remember? We remember. Your mother probably told you-

Howard:

Yeah. No, I remember-

Debra:

I remember it well.

Howard:

I was in grade school, it was Dragnet.

Debra:

That's right, Dragnet. The facts.

Howard:

Just the facts.

Debra:

Just the facts. So what you want to do is Susie worked for me from this date to this date. Make sure you have the dates right. Susie's, if you really want to get intricate, Susie's responsibilities bullet point, bullet point. No comments, nothing about she was good at this she was ... Because what you think is great might not be great for somebody else, but more than that it's a slippery slope. They have in ... In big corporations today they have snubbed their nose at reference letters for years, and years, and years. So I tell my clients that all the time. Very simple, just the facts. That's it. Done. And I've said to many of my clients, "Let your ex employee know that this is what you'll supply them with. It was a recommendation because it's the way to handle it legally." They'll just do with it as they please, but it's no opinions. No opinion. She was great or she wasn't great. You want to ... That will save you a lot of thanks later.

Howard:

But again is it ... Do you recommend calling references on hires or do you think-

Debra:

Well that's a good question. Here's another thing I've put together. You can call a reference, but you need to get the approval in writing by the employee in question or the potential employee in question, and I've even recommended the questions to ask. So for example, "Susie I want to check if ... Will you give me permission to check with Doctor Farran on a few things." And. "Okay." "I'm going to show you the questions I'm going to ask. These are the only questions I'm going to ask, and they're also very nothing heavy. Did Susie take any CE courses? Did Susie give any ... Did you find that she was proactive in her position?" But she has to approve them. And a signatures down here, so you see the paper came from you. Now it needs to go from you to her ex-employee. There can't be anybody in the middle. It can't go to the person at the front desk, it can't go to someone else-

Howard:

So you're talking about this to avoid lawsuit.

Debra:

Exactly. Go straight to them. And course years ago when I recommended it we were faxing. You fax it over and make sure the doctor gets to see it. Now of course you email it.

Howard:

I got to say something about fax. I no longer will enter someone's fax number in the contact. I can't remember the last time I faxed anybody anything, but you know when you meet someone there always trying to give you a card.

Debra:

Of course.

Howard:

I won't take a card I just say, "Well just pull out your phone right now and email me Howard@dentaltown.com." Because then you can just go home and it's right there I am, and if they say, "Well I don't have my phone." Then I'll take their card I'll write Howard@dentaltown.com and I'll give it to them.

Debra:

Good for you.

Howard:

Because it's just so much simpler-

Debra:

It is simpler.

Howard:

To have that digital.

Debra:

It is.

Howard:

There's a business card.

Debra:

It is.

Howard:

And if they don't have the capability to email you from their phone or their work I can't think of a good reason you need to have their card anyways.

Debra:

Well there's a lot that you can learn early. For example, when you have someone that is potentially going to be coming in for an interview if one of the first questions they start to ask you, "What is the pay? When do I get vacation time?" All the stuff you're going to give me just like if you write a traditional ad, which by the way I still believe in to this day. For the way I work anyway. I use Craigslist to this day, but my ads are very different.

Howard:

I used to use Craigslist, but now it all went to back page.

Debra:

Oh, yeah. Okay.

Howard:

You catch that joke right?

Debra:

Okay.

Howard:

No, but yeah Craigslist-

Debra:

If the ads are very specific, and I do that intentionally because I want to be able to know have they read my ad. When they call me, in reference to the ad, I'll say, "Talk to me a little bit about what sparked your interest," because I'm always looking are you paying attention? Are you proactive? I give people little tasks like have you checked me out yet? You really should know who you're talking to. I send them links. I want to see if these people follow up. Now granted it takes a little bit longer to follow a system, but boy oh boy if you want longevity do it the right way the first time because every time you've got ...

Here's what happens the, revolving door, the message to everyone, "Oh gosh, has is a new person in there every other day." That's the first thing it sends. It's also it's very costly. They used to say, "$30,000 is what it costs every time you replace an employee." I think that stuff is ... That was years ago, that's statistic, so I'm sure it's much higher today.

Howard:

So what are you working on now? You have ... Is Our Perio Team, is that your new project now?

Debra:

It is.

Howard:

Tell me what-

Debra:

How I got there.

Howard:

Yeah, tell us your journey about why you're ... OurPerioTeam.com. You work with general dentists every specialty, how did you get to OurPerioTeam.com?

Debra:

Okay. Good question.

Howard:

What's your-

Debra:

So one of the reasons that I was successful with my initial endeavor was because my husband and his team, he's an IT specialist and a software developer, developed a program that meshed with my business model. And he says-

Howard:

And which business model?

Debra:

With Desert Dental Staffing. I had my own very sophisticated, and he kept building on it, and building on it, software. That it worked very much like computer dating. You're looking for an assistant, you're in 85044?

Howard:

85044.

Debra:

044, I knew it ... You needed them to be an RDA, whatever is in it put in all the little pieces, and it pulled out some possibilities, and on top of that I used to do ... I still do. I do a little study on behavior. I want to see if their behavior is going to match. If they're very low in enthusiasm and verbal skills, they're not going to be seeing you because they wouldn't be right for you. Anyway, so he created this amazing software. So between his software and my methodology we were picked up for national franchise, and we had agencies across the country. At the time they were called Doc Staff. I sold that many, many years ago.

Howard:

They were called what?

Debra:

Doc Staff. D-O-C S-T-

Howard:

Was it just for dentistry or was it medicine?

Debra:

Just for dentistry.

Howard:

Doc Staff. Do they still ... Are they still out there now?

Debra:

I sold it in, oh my gosh, I sold it about 10 years ago.

Howard:

But I mean are any of them still running?

Debra:

I want to say Houston.

Howard:

Houston.

Debra:

But I had two in Florida, I had one in California, I had one here, and they were all over. So but what was happening was I was trying to pull myself out from the team thing. I just ... I love it, don't get me wrong, but I was trying to stay away from traveling and visiting and, so one day and actually it was about five or six years ago, I got a call from a dentist here who said, "Deb, please help, help, help." And I said, "Well I'm not going to come there," and he said, "Do it remotely. I bet you can do it remotely." And I said, "Really?" He said, "I bet you can." P.S. I did it remotely for years, and it was strictly word of mouth. I didn't advertise, it was one dentist told another. Lo and behold through the grapevine I wound up working with a very successful periodontist in Philadelphia who mans up a group called NASP, North American Society of Periodontists, and this was a group of periodontists across the country that work together, but yet there is no conflict of interest because you have to be approved, and you have it ... Look up-

Howard:

Yeah, I'll get it.

Debra:

I know, you're so funny. So there was no conflict. They all over the place. So I worked with one he said, "Oh my gosh. I've got to tell my friend in Dallas about you." And I said, "Okay." So I started working with him. Then this one told that one. Before I knew it I was working very, very heavily with periodontist placing personnel. One in particular who was just, he could be your twin, he's another outgoing -

Howard:

Is he a super model?

Debra:

He's a super model.

Howard:

Is he a dancer?

Debra:

He's a stud.

Howard:

Right on.

Debra:

He dances. I mean he could be your-

Howard:

[inaudible 00:37:10].

Debra:

There it is. He could be your ... Anyway he was one of the groups and he happens to be in Las Vegas. He begged me to come to his practice he said, "Deb you've helped me build my team, I'm so pleased. What is it take for me to get you here?" And I said, "Oh gee, I don't know." He said, "Come on. It's 45 minutes by plane, please I'll take." I said, "Okay, okay." So I went out and lo and behold, I guess for not being in the environment for years, I started to see things and I looked and see, "Okay, so you're using Dentrix. Well what about this? And what about ... What do you use for marketing?" And the girl picks up his huge book and throws in front of me. She said, "That's our marketing." I said, "That book?" She said, "Oh yeah, I track it way." And then I observed a lot, and I'm watching, and I'm seeing the front desk is getting calls from general dentists, "Where is my patient in the system?" And, "Doctor can I get back to you? I'm not sure." She calls the assistant, "Can you get on Ms. Smith because Doctor Jones wants to know. He's dying to finish her treatment, where is she?"

So I'm watching this and I was ... I traveled to him a couple times each month for about two months and one day I said, "How do you do this?" He said, "Deb, it's a nightmare." I said, "You know my husbands a software developer. He's already developed software for me. He's developed Steve Anderson," we know that name. He has done some work for him. He does a lot of amazing [crosstalk 00:38:38] work for Steve's private company, for Tops, and he's amazing. He does a lot of statistic stuff and so forth. So I said, "You know-

Howard:

Me and Steve have the same dentist.

Debra:

Oh, do you?

Howard:

Yeah.

Debra:

Hornbrook?

Howard:

Yeah, David Hornbrook.

Debra:

I love David Hornbrook. He's wonderful, I love him. One of his ... He's a mentor to a dentist that I've worked with in San Diego, she's-

Howard:

And David Hornbrook's first kid is named Phoenix.

Debra:

After you?

Howard:

After me. I-

Debra:

They couldn't do [inaudible 00:39:12], it was too long. You couldn't do that to a kid, [inaudible 00:39:17]. So I just ... Each time I went and I sat with him one night and I said, "You know, here's my question." He said, "Are you kidding? Are you kidding?" I said, "No, I'm thinking you guys need your own software. I mean the communication between you and the dentist, and then you write these thank you notes, and you've got to go in and write them. What if, and I don't know this for sure, but what if we," and this was two and years ago, "What if we, my husband and I his team, and just my head could put together a software that respects who you are as a periodontist and answers to your needs specifically. Not just marketing, but who sends you what and when they send them to you, do you ever know?" He said, "No, I was so embarrassed I was out to lunch the other day and one of our great general dentists walks and said how do you like the patient I sent? What do you think?" And he said, "I didn't even know she was coming. How am I supposed to know that?"

So low and behold I started to make a list, and the list got longer, and longer, and longer so Russ kept bringing in more of his people to help build it, and-

Howard:

Your husband Ross Roberge.

Debra:

My husband, Russ Roberge not-

Howard:

Which is so funny because the dentist next door to me is, for 30 years, is Russ Roberge.

Debra:

I know.

Howard:

So do you sometimes get confused and go home with the dentist Russ Roberge?

Debra:

When I lived up here it was a little confusing. So my husband's 6'4 and I don't think he is. Someone told me he's not that tall, so that helps. Yeah, that helps. That's so funny. So that's how this came to be, and actually we just finished beta testing, so right now we're looking for promoters, we're looking for people in the perio-

Howard:

You're looking for beta testing?

Debra:

We've got that. We've had that all completed, so we're ... Yeah.

Howard:

So then what's the next stage?

Debra:

Next stage is if people have a passion for this area, if they've worked in perio-

Howard:

You know what you should do?

Debra:

Tell me.

Howard:

Well Dental Town-

Debra:

I know.

Howard:

Has a quarter million dentists, so I would go to-

Debra:

I know, I am.

Howard:

Categories-

Debra:

I am.

Howard:

And then I would go to P. I would go to periodontics.

Debra:

Yes.

Howard:

We have a quarter million dentists on. There's 10,600 orthodontists, about 5,000 oral surgeons, about 4,000 periodontists. Is that your numbers?

Debra:

About right.

Howard:

I would go right to Dental Town and I would just post on there.

Debra:

Well I'm there and I'm going to do that for sure.

Howard:

And just tell them exactly ... Just be transparent-

Debra:

Absolutely.

Howard:

On the site. This is who I am, this is what I'm looking for. Anybody interested in being whatever it is you-

Debra:

And that's it. It's internet based, it's cloud based. It's highly, highly tight in other words, HIPAA compliant. We went to see a fabulous attorney up here. I'm not giving her a plug, she doesn't need it, but she's amazing. And she does cyber-

Howard:

In Phoenix?

Debra:

She does cyber stuff. Because we needed to make sure that we were as tight as we could be cyber wise, especially like you said what's going on in our world today. Because now the general dentist will have his own portal. He can go in and see where his patient is in the periodontist practice. How much more time they need. Hygienists can speak to hygienists, and if they're special requirements for Mrs. Jones because she's got an implant that's not looking so hot we have to be very careful. It's opened up a whole communication segment for them, and now they know the doctor can have a [text 00:42:49] come and say, "Just this minute Doctor Farran just sent you two patients." So he's got it, he's got the patient's name, he's got everything.

We've eliminated the old traditional, the one thing that goes back to the 60's when I started those paper referral forms. I know a lot of companies are doing it now without paper, but ours is very quick. It's bing, bing, bing, bing and it goes right there, everything's there. We also have a much better way of sending x-rays, photos, tight, quick, shows up. It's pretty amazing.

Howard:

And it'll be fun because you can post that on Dental Town and see what the periodontists think.

Debra:

Absolutely.

Howard:

And I got to tell you a [inaudible 00:43:32] a friend of mine passed away, Bob Gibson, the founder of [inaudible 00:43:35].

Debra:

Oh, I know that name.

Howard:

And I remember one time when Dental Town first came out it was a new world order because CEO's like that never, ever could hear really from their customers. I mean some of the CEO's [inaudible 00:43:46] and some guy got on Dental Town, and starting saying that he didn't like his product. And Bob called me up and [inaudible 00:43:54], "Take down that post." And I said, "Well, I'm not going to take down that post." He goes, "Oh, you will. Trust me. I'll sick my attorneys on you, I'll tell you that."

Debra:

Whoa.

Howard:

I said, "I don't live in fear." I said, "I don't even care." I said, "But Bob, here's ... You don't understand this do you, internet thing?" I said, "That guy on Dental Town has 1,000 posts, and you're in Santa Maria, California, and he's in L.A. And you own a jet." I said, "If I was you I'd sit in your jet, pick his ass up, or drive down there have [inaudible 00:44:29]." I said, "You're both dentists." I said, "You're ... At that time he was probably 60 and this kid was probably 25. I said, "Why don't you listen to your damn customer?"

Debra:

Absolutely.

Howard:

So he yelled and screamed that it's not, and finally took a chill pill, and he called him up, invited him to come [inaudible 00:44:50] office. And those two guys fell in love in about three minutes because they're both extremely passionate.

Debra:

That's right.

Howard:

And if you believe the world is red and I believe it's blue, well we're both dentists and we're both only treating the patient.

Debra:

That's right.

Howard:

And it's so funny how people they take ... It takes a very humble person to listen to feedback that says, "I don't like what you're doing," and it takes a very, very high self-esteem humble person, and people are extremely complex. I look at just my five sisters and my four sons. I mean my five sisters, the only thing those five girls have in common, is the same mom and dad.

Debra:

Wow.

Howard:

And my four boys, I mean I'm positive my ex wife cheated on me four times because they're all six foot. They're completely different people.

Debra:

That's very interesting.

Howard:

So why in the world would you think your business would make everyone happy? You're going to have [inaudible 00:45:52] things and people are [inaudible 00:45:53] and the high self esteem people-

Debra:

I want to hear that. [crosstalk 00:45:56].

Howard:

A high self esteem person, when a patient it totally upset, it's a teachable moment.

Debra:

That's right.

Howard:

So just listen. I'm I think I've avoided all the lawsuit stuff because when I knew that seeing Walton took [inaudible 00:46:13] all returns with no questions asked. I mean you could bring a back a sleeping bag with mud and dirt-

Debra:

That's right.

Howard:

Filled with gravel and show the rep, and they won't even talk.

Debra:

That's right.

Howard:

And who's to say was there before or after you slap it in a ravine.

Debra:

That's what builds a reputation. [crosstalk 00:46:30].

Howard:

And I can't tell you how many times I gave the money back for the denture. I redid their crown for free. It's a teachable moment. And then I learned over the years things like when you have a woman come in and she has pictures, and things all written down about her smile, and she wants eight veneers, dude I'd rather be a plumber. You start to sit there and say, "Can I make money off this deal or is this a nightmare." I mean when someone ... You start reading ... Doing an implant, doing an [inaudible 00:47:07] implant on a old fat bald man with a liver spot, go for it. Beautiful woman, high lip line, who takes ten selfies a month, are you out of your freaking mind? You couldn't please that woman if it was perfect.

Debra:

That's right.

Howard:

Learning the people business, the soft skills, and sounds like what you're doing is a cloud based deal that's going to connect more of the people, the touch-

Debra:

It's a technical way of bringing people together again basically. Because we've kind of, like you said, we're kind of drifting apart. With social media you don't have to do as much as you did years ago, but now we're bringing it together still in a very technical format, but I want to make sure everybody's in tune. Can I address something because I know that you had mentioned you have a lot of young dentists. I'm very passionate about young dentists. I'm very passionate about young because I wish I was again, don't we all.

Howard:

Well I don't know. I wouldn't get back to [inaudible 00:48:10]. That was a brutal long working year.

Debra:

It's true. It's true.

Howard:

Oh my God. I don't know if I'd ... I don't know if I have the energy to go back through dental school again.

Debra:

I know.

Howard:

I had four boys in sixty months.

Debra:

Whoa.

Howard:

I didn't sleep through the night for a decade.

Debra:

I bet.

Howard:

I'm actually enjoying 54.

Debra:

I bet. Oh my gosh. No, I had three, but I had them split up. You know the young dentists, with all do respect, I have so much respect for what they go through. I mean there's no question, and I'm talking about starting from scratch. I know you were just speaking to someone about coming out of corporate dentistry, and so many great dentists have. You have no choice. Corporate dentistry is a great initial landing pad, and you can learn a lot from that. But the new young dentist that starts out, and I've had many, many, many that have called me, and many that I've coached and guided. It's funny because when they purchase their equipment they're looking for the [inaudible 00:49:17] for whatever, and I get that. I mean these things are important, but so often the team part is way in the back of their to-do list.

Choosing a team for a brand new dentist is a very different animal, and many of them don't get it. They feel the minute they open their doors, scratch practice, maybe a few patients that are come through friends word of mouth, you don't need an entire team. That's number one, and we'll talk about that in a minute. The other thing that I want to bring up is prepare for having a team. Prepare job descriptions, prepare materials, prepare an employee manual, prepare what kind of culture would you like to have in your practice. In other words, what percentage of your patient base will be indemnity insurance? What will be maybe HMO? What will be totally insurance free? Have it all spelled out, but more so it's that team stuff because they just feel I'll hire an assistant, I'll hire this I'll hire that. The best way to do it is to grow into your team because if you don't grow into your team you're going to have excess people, too many people, you're not going to be able to grow properly.

So here is what I recommend. There are many great employees out there that are, they call themselves cross-trained. Now another one of my thoughts, I don't believe anyone is totally cross-trained, and I'll tell you why. People say, "I can do everything equally." Do you know anybody that is ambidextrous that can do absolutely everything with both hands?

Howard:

No.

Debra:

Have you ever met ... No.

Howard:

No.

Debra:

It's really impossible. The same thing applies to the mindset of the clinical team to the mindset of the administrative team, very different. I mean I've had dentists say to me, "She's a fabulous assistant, so you know what? I'm going to tell her I'm moving her to the front because she's fabulous." Well she's great with patients, she's touchy feely, she's kind, she's sweet, but I have to ask for $50,000 just like that. It's very tough for some people, but yet they don't want to disappoint. They don't want to have a complication. "Okay doctor I'll go up there." So that's another thing. But the people that are cross-trained what I do is this ... Strengths are, we know where they prefer to be, but we hired them understanding that this is temporary. As we grow we will then put you in the place that you belong because you know where you belong, and we're going to know it too.

So we hired this cross-trained person, she handled a couple of patients we have during the day. She grabs the phone as she can, and as the practice grows guess what Susie's, "Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. I'm now going to be the assistant I've always wanted to be." She goes back to the assistant role and we hire someone to replace Susie. Susie can then train the new person coming in because she's done both. I know there's some controversy here when it comes to doing your own hygiene. You didn't go to hygiene school, many dentists are not good at hygiene, they're just not. They prefer the hygienist to do it, but if anything have a hygienist one day a week. You don't need to hire a full-time hygienist the day that you open your doors. You just don't. And then it grows as you grow, and the same applies to all the other positions. So I always say, "Grow into it." Does that make sense?

Howard:

Well I think one of the biggest changes that's happened in labor in my 30 years, I graduated in '87 and it's 2017, is that 30 years ago I did a crown for $1,000, billed to Delta Dental of Arizona and they paid half. I did a molar root canal for $1,000, billed it to Delta of Arizona, and they paid 80%. And now, Delta's all PPO's and the average PPO is about 40% less, so I'm getting $600 for a root canal that I got a $1,000 for, so I guess the simple math is the fact that dental assisting and dental offices period, it used to be like a flight attendant.

Debra:

That's right.

Howard:

And now a flight attendant at Southwest Airlines doesn't make half of what they used to make on Delta, and Braniff, and TWA like in all the movies. [inaudible 00:53:54] Leonardo DiCaprio in Catch Me If You Can. So it's gone from a glamorous job.

Debra:

That's right.

Howard:

And there's so many dental offices with these legacy dental staff that remember the flight attendant from the TWA days, and with PPO's ... It's a real squeeze on labor.

Debra:

It is.

Howard:

What do you think of the PPO's and I mean they're ... And whenever you talk to consulting ... I talked to [inaudible 00:54:26] say that they want labor, and when I say labor I mean that's totally that's FICA matching if you provide health insurance, 401k, whatever the hell is attributed to this human being is labor 20%, that they're [inaudible 00:54:40] offices that are going broke where labor could be 35, 40. Some have seen labor at 50%.

Debra:

I know.

Howard:

What are your thoughts about labor?

Debra:

It's a tough one, it's a tough one. You know how do you do it? Well years ago the percentage of the, as I call it the pie that was devoted to employees salaries, was about 20% when I was starting 20, 25%, and I see it growing, and growing, and growing, and growing.

Howard:

You're right. It was 20% when I got out of school in '87.

Debra:

That's right.

Howard:

And overhead ... 1987 labor was 20, over head was 50.

Debra:

That's right.

Howard:

So now it's 2017, labors 28, and overhead's 65.

Debra:

I hear you.

Howard:

And that extra 15% is the PPO.

Debra:

I know it is.

Howard:

It's the adjusted production.

Debra:

I know it is. It is. If I had the answer I probably would be who knows. I'd have my own plane and have a great time. I don't know-

Howard:

You'd have your name on all your buildings.

Debra:

Everywhere. Yeah, no I don't know if I'd want to do that. I don't know if I want to do that. But you know it's a tough call. I don't want to minimize the great experience people out there because they're very necessary, and there's something to be said for great experience, but on the flip side I'm also very open to bringing in new people and training them yourself.

Howard:

Well you know, it's tough when you're its own because back in the early day at corporate when they started rolling across ... They went out and got 100 million dollar lines of credit from venture capitalist and they'd buy all these dental offices, and now all those CEO's they say, "We don't want to do it anymore because when we buy your office and you gave your staff a dollar raise every time the Earth went around the sun and if labor was based on astrology, and then we got to go in there and oh by the way you're making $25 an hour, yeah we just moved you to $18," and then deal with that attitude for a year because you-

Debra:

You know, can I talk about that because that was an interesting-

Howard:

So they're doing de novo's because so many of you offices, you made a decision to take the PPO. So you made the genius Einstein decision for whatever reason, and it might've been a good reason to do dentistry at 40% off, but you just gave all of your staff a $1 an hour raise because the Earth went around the sun, and a lot of offices are unfixable because someone has to tell princess that she's no longer going to make $28 an hour, she's to make 18, and the big corporate management teams won't even make that decisions. They're just like, "No, we'll pass on your office. We'd rather start from scratch across the street."

Debra:

That's right. That's exactly right.

Howard:

There's a lot of offices that have to-

Debra:

I know it. Well-

Howard:

Have a come to Jesus meeting or fire people and replace them.

Debra:

Here's the thing. Well, here's the thing. I know, I hear this a lot, and I used to ... There were times where I see the entire team from one practice show up, we just found out our doctor sold the practice, and we're out of here. And why? Well we don't know if we like the new person, and we just know our salaries going to be cut, but more than that he never told us. So the first thing I'd start with is, okay you're selling a house, would you sell a house without a refrigerator, freezer? Without a dishwasher, a stove? And they'd all go, "No, we have to." So please understand he has to, he wants to sell a complete office with the equipment, with the patient base, with the software, and with his team. So please understand that he loves, it's not that he wanted to keep it from you, he had no choice. So I settle that right up.

And I always say, "Please give someone a chance. Chances are you may have to go back a little bit in salary, but it was time for your doctor to move on. A new person's coming in help him. You know the patient's, you know the practice, stick with it." When it comes to transferring the baton from one dentist to another I always say when you're just about ready to get the thing launched, put the name outside and change the name or however you want to do it. Bring the team in with the dentist that's going out that maybe is just working a day or two a week, and bring in the new dentist. Sit down with the team and say, "Here's the story. It was time for me to move on. I'm cutting back. I'll be here one day a week for the next six months or a year. Doctor so and so's taking over. I'm going to let him have the floor and talk to you about his vision for this practice because it may not be my vision, and I want you to listen."

And make this a two hour thing. Bring in lunch, whatever it takes, and he then will discuss with the team, "Here's what we may be changing this we may be changing that." Now what will happen is, and you may have to say, "Salaries, I'm going to be honest with you, I'm just going to have to bring them down a little." Point is there'll be people that'll say, "I'm still on board. I'm with you." And then there are those that'll say ... And make it very clear, anyone that feels this isn't going to work for them, no hard feelings. It's better to know now that you need to replace an assistant or hygienist then to start off with a team that is not in it. It's the best way to do it.

Howard:

My number two man has always been Lori [Slowki 01:00:06]. On good days we call each Batman and Robin. Sometimes we're Mickey and Mallory Knox. Sometimes we're Bonnie and Clyde, but we both have had so many conversations that in every interview we've ever done, the people most focused on money have always been the worst employees.

Debra:

Absolutely.

Howard:

And the people, when they come in, and all they want to know is exactly what will we be doing and who will I be working with? Well, can I meet the other assistant? Can I meet the other hygienist? And they'd go around, but the one that's sitting there saying, "I was making $22 an hour, and I was wanting to make 25, 50 or this or that. What it your 401k match?" For 20 to 30 years everyone focused on money has always-

Debra:

Absolutely.

Howard:

And then here's the other thing, I'm embarrassed to say this because I have an MBA, we've only hired two MBA's in our entire life other than me, and they were completely clueless.

Debra:

Clueless.

Howard:

Dan Fisher of [Altranet 01:01:16] has 1,500 employees, a big manufacturing deal he says, "Every single PhD they ever hired was useless." So some people go read about it in books for five years, and other people are just street-smart and know it.

Debra:

That's right. That's right.

Howard:

And today's generation, if their humble, hungry, have a curious mind they'll figure it out on YouTube or the internet. But the ones who go stay in school for five years and read books, they're usually not clever.

Debra:

They're perpetual students. That's want to just keep going back to school. But I want to say something now, and many of you who've worked with me know that I live by this one little statement. So I'm going to set the stage. So you're interviewing someone face-to-face, you've spent maybe a half hour, 45 minutes on this initial face-to-face interview, and you think it's going well, and you're seeing some good things. What I want you to do is stop and say, "Howard." Let me set the stage a little more. I never talk salary. I do not talk salary. We do not know where you're going to fit in that whole scheme of things. Now we have an idea where we're going to go, and this probably might be a whole nother sessions for you because I created something over years out of need called the progressive salary program to end the question, what do you want to make? What do you need to make? What did you make in your last?

Done, no longer do you have to ask that question. We drive the ship from our end, and then they follow. We'll talk about that later, but ... So we don't salary. We're talking the position. We're talking the goals of the practice. We're talking about how it's been, where you want to see it. Your culture, all these other things and you're feeling like it's going really well. You then sit back and you say these words, "Okay Howard, if I were to offer you this position, what are you hoping for?" Sometimes people say, "Well, what do you mean? What do you mean by that?" You just stop, you smile. "If I were you offer you this." You ask it again, now it works like a charm. Some people, without hesitation, will say, "Oh my gosh, I'm hoping to be here because I love your technology. I love your team. You have such a great reputation in the valley. It's just the kind of office I've dreamed about."

There are others without a split-second, "Well, I'm hoping for like $30 an hour. I'm hoping for complete."

Howard:

Nice. That's ... Well actually we call them no shark or ink blot interview question. By the way, what do you want to call this podcast?

Debra:

That's a good question.

Howard:

As simple as possible because you only want to have few as words-

Debra:

I know.

Howard:

Deb Roberge of what? What do you want to call it?

Debra:

It's a good one, I have no idea.

Howard:

Ryan, what do you think?

Ryan:

[crosstalk 01:04:19].

Debra:

Teams are people too.

Howard:

Okay. Well we're talking about what we're going to call this.

Ryan:

Yeah, I know. This episode [crosstalk 01:04:24].

Debra:

Teams are people too. I don't know.

Howard:

Teams are people too?

Debra:

I don't know. I don't know. We can think about it.

Howard:

That was ... I never thought about Rose ... What is it Rosork, Roshark? What was the ink blot?

Debra:

Oh, the ink blot. Yeah.

Howard:

Rorschach, ink blot test.

Debra:

Yeah, it's French, and that's perfect because my name's French. So we can call it Roberge.

Howard:

Roberge is French?

Debra:

It is. It's French Canadian.

Howard:

So are you French Canadian or is your husband French Canadian?

Debra:

No, my husband.

Howard:

That is a Rorschach ink blot [crosstalk 01:04:53].

Debra:

Isn't it fabulous. It's fabulous.

Howard:

If I was hiring, what are you hoping for?

Debra:

That's it. It's the glass half full-

Howard:

And if they showed money, I can tell that is never going to do it.

Debra:

Yup.

Howard:

Well it was Steve Jobs who said, "If you don't love what you're doing, find another job."

Debra:

Absolutely.

Howard:

He said, "The only people that are good at their jobs are the ones that loves it." And he always said, "If you don't love your job," he said, "[inaudible 01:05:18], quit, leave."

Debra:

Absolutely. [crosstalk 01:05:20].

Howard:

If you can imagine spending your whole life doing something you don't like.

Debra:

I can't, I can't because I've always loved each twist and turn I've taken over years. I've loved every single thing-

Howard:

That was great. That was worth the whole podcast, just for that one area. I'm wondering how many Rorschach ink blot test questions like that you could even ask patients. That's going to make me think the rest of my Saturday.

Debra:

Oh, absolutely. I can call you on a couple of others that I've thought up over the years, but that's a very ... It's amazing how it works, and those people that hesitate, sometimes I cut them slack because sometimes they just want to be sure.

Howard:

Because you see that in journalism ... It's illegal in court to lead the witness. But you see it in journalism honestly, well what do you not like the most about this guy? I said, "What do you mean, what you don't." How do you know they don't like anything about him?

Debra:

Exactly.

Howard:

They're always leading the witness and the judge will stop it, and when you're talking to a patient or a staff member you shouldn't lead them, you should just throw them a neutral ... That was so cool.

Debra:

And I've heard everything from, I mean they've rattled things off. I need this an hour. Did I tell you I need this? And I'm going on vacation. I mean they just rattled off.

Howard:

And some people are so crazy over the years. I remember one dental assistant told me she goes, "Well, right now my commute it's almost 20 minutes and if I worked here the commute would only be 10." I'm thinking, "You would leave your dental office for a 10 minute commute? You don't even give a shit."

Debra:

Exactly. That's another reason-

Howard:

Either that office means nothing to you or you have no ... And I'll tell you what the other thing is, sometimes people get in a career and it's wrong. I remember one of my earliest assistants, you can just tell she hated it, and every time she ever talked about it, she'd only had three or four jobs, and the only time I ever saw her eyes glass over was when she's talking her gardening. And I told her one day I said, "You hate this, and I don't know if it's me, our office. I don't know if you like Jan, but I tell you what? From me knowing you, should go work in a nursery." She says, "But I went to dental assisting school. My dad sent me to dental assisting shool. I went to a year of college for dental assisting." I said, "I don't give a shit. You don't like this."

Debra:

Good for you. Good for you.

Howard:

And I hounded her for a long time, and she finally went and applied at the nursery right on the other side of South [inaudible 01:07:52]. I forget what it's called, South side Nursery. The one right on the corner, the big one. Oh my God she loved it.

Debra:

She's in heaven. Oh, I've had this happen many times where I could tell this person is just not in it. And I'll say, "Tell me this, how did you get into the field of dentistry the first time?" It's amazing. It was not any one of their idea for passion. This is what I want to do. It was either my mother was a hygienist, she told me to do it.

Howard:

Right, right.

Debra:

I heard the best one recently where, you know why? Because in school people were raising their hands at what they want to do, and couldn't think of anything so I just raised my hand, and I told my mother. Next thing I know she had the application ready, and I was off and going. If you're not passionate about what you're doing, if you're not enjoying it, and you know it follows through everything. It completes the circle of the salaries going to change, but it will with your help, and with the great team that we have going, it's going to come up and everybody will be rewarded. People that are in it get that.

Howard:

I'd say the most miserable dentist that I've known for 30 years, their dad was a dentist.

Debra:

Oh, interesting.

Howard:

And they they just fell into it. Maybe they're trying to please their dad or their mom or whatever.

Debra:

It happens a lot.

Howard:

And then they didn't like it. Last question.

Debra:

Sure.

Howard:

You've fit a career into building HR.

Debra:

Yes.

Howard:

I don't want to get into politics, sex, religion, violence whenever we're talking about things where people will never open their mind or change their mind about them, but as soon as Ronald Reagan said, "Free trade," all of [Asia 01:09:29] said, "Wow." The government started giving them billions of dollars to build all these factories, and they start dumping their products on America, and we've lost 50 million manufacturing jobs, so this old world profession is now men ... All the data you look at the Bureau of Labor statistics, men are pouring into hospitals. My office manager's now [med 01:09:54]. I had two dental assistant that are med.

Debra:

Oh, yes.

Howard:

All my homies that are my age are now hiring boys because the manufacturing jobs are all in Asia.

Debra:

That's right, that's right.

Howard:

So do you thin HR is going to ... Our dental staffing ... Do you think much of it's going to change as we go to a profession that truly was over 98% women?

Debra:

Yeah.

Howard:

And now every single year men are coming up a notch.

Debra:

Well for one thing, obviously, we have to be very careful as far as discrimination, very careful. I had a client once I interviewed a phenomenal gal who was black, and she was an amazing, and set up the interview. She went in and the doctor called me and said, "She was black." I said, "She's a great dental assistant. She's wonderful." He said, "But you." I said, "We don't go there." I said, "I won't even touch that. I won't even go there." So that's something we've got to stop. People are people. People are people, and if the person is a devoted clinical assistant, fabulous hygienists, I look for their behavioral style and their skills first. Who they are, and what they do, and what they know. That to me is everything, but you're right it has changed quite a bit.

I have a client who I just found the second male team member for her, and she's a she and-

Howard:

I would say as far as race and ethnicity and all that stuff, I think the office staff has to match your hood, and where I've seen it wrong the most is you're going into an area that's like all Hispanic, and then you go into this dental office, and it's an Indian dentist. Everyone in there's from India, and you walk in the door and think you almost went through a time warp machine. It's all different ... It's like dude if your areas 80% Hispanic, you need somebody in here who's Hispanic. You can't walk through the door and be in New Delhi.

Debra:

It's true.

Howard:

And as far the men go, I know this sounds really, really bad, but this is Dentistry Uncensored. If you're that female dentist who for some ... I don't even know what it is, but having a hard time leading women, it seems like ... If a woman dentist has a hard time leading women and you replace it out with boys, they just boss them. And I can give you names of a dozen women dentists who said, "My God, I beat my head up the wall for years trying to get my receptionists and hygienists to all place nice. And now I have five employees, three of them are guys, and I'm in heaven now."

Debra:

Yeah, and you're right.

Howard:

And here's the crazy most crazy thing I'm going to say, but I still think the greatest office managers I've ever seen perform in my 30 years were gay men up front. It's something about gay men that will motivate [crosstalk 01:12:59].

Debra:

It's caregiving, well it's caregiving too.

Howard:

Patients and assistants, they know it's the hygienist birthday. They're just so intuitive about how people are feeling and how they can make people feel. Where a lot of female dentists and male doctors I mean ... If I had to bet on who knows how you're feeling, a gay man or a dentist, I'd put the whole house on the gay man.

Debra:

I know, I know.

Howard:

Do you agree with that or it is me?

Debra:

You know, I hate to it I do, but it's true. It's just who we are. It's our make up. And it could be ... It could easily be a female with the same makeup. And I don't mean face make up, I mean just the internal workings, but ... So I will-

Howard:

So I guess what I said is this ... This sounds so bad and sexist, but I think it's easier to manage a bunch of boys than a bunch of women because I think boys are just simpler. [crosstalk 01:14:09]. I men was it Chris Rock who said, "Men, all you got to do is feed them. Throw them a sandwich." I think they're just less complicated.

Debra:

Yeah, well that's true. That is true. I mean the female-

Howard:

They're simpletons.

Debra:

Not necessarily that I mean there's-

Howard:

[crosstalk 01:14:22].

Debra:

Some structure. They have to have a structure. They have to have the business savvy. There's a lot, time management. I love the fact that some people are just born with the ability to know what comes first fast. I always say, "The phone's ringing, patient's coming in the door, and someone is dismissing a patient to the front desk. Who comes first?" One, two, three. One, two, three. So it's just a matter of having that piece that not everybody has. Some do, some don't. That's a great question to do in interviews. I love scenario questions. You set up a scenario.

Howard:

And that's also the number one error of a dentist is they graduate from school, they're at the apex of the education system a doctor, but they don't hear ... They hear you're a doctor, not you're a doctor of dentistry who don't know shit about anything else. So when you graduate from the apex you just assume you're really smart in all areas, and just because you're really smart in physics doesn't mean you know anything about history. Just because you're a doctor doesn't mean you know anything about HR, marketing-

Debra:

It's the people skills. It's the people things that really-

Howard:

And that's the one's who always go the farthest, is the one's who master the people skills first. But now we went 10 minutes overtime. Thank you on a Saturday of coming over to my house in Phoenix [crosstalk 01:15:45].

Debra:

My pleasure.

Howard:

And spend time with my homies today.

Debra:

My pleasure.

Howard:

Thank you so much for doing that.

Debra:

Thank you.